How can I make something like determinants tangible? Are there real

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around making the concept of determinants more tangible and exploring real-life examples of their application. Participants examine the relationship between determinants and volume, as well as their role in solving systems of linear equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the volume of a parallelepiped can be represented by the determinant of a 3x3 matrix formed by its base vectors, noting that orientation affects the sign of the determinant.
  • It is proposed that the determinant indicates how linear mappings affect volumes, with volume being a key tangible example.
  • Another participant mentions that determinants can help determine whether a system of linear equations has a solution, emphasizing the need for a nonzero determinant of the coefficient matrix.
  • One participant challenges the explanation regarding determinants and solutions, arguing that having a determinant of zero is sufficient for a solution to exist, but not necessary, and clarifies that this discussion pertains to maps between spaces of the same dimension.
  • A later reply introduces the historical context of determinants, suggesting that their discovery was linked to solving sets of N-dimensional linear equations, which could be considered a tangible aspect.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the relationship between determinants and the existence of solutions to linear equations, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions about dimensions and the conditions under which determinants apply, as well as the potential confusion for those new to the concept.

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How can I make something like determinants tangible? Are there real life examples where determinants are used?
 
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matqkks said:
How can I make something like determinants tangible? Are there real life examples where determinants are used?

Volume comes up:

- The volume of a parallelepiped equals the determinant of the 3 x 3 matrix made up by its 3 "base vectors".
(if "oriented" lefthanded, it will come out negative).
 


The determinant determines how the corresponding linear mapping changes all kinds of volumes.
 


Volume is probably the most tangible example, but another one to keep in mind is that they allow you to determine whether a system of linear equations has a solution (the determinant of the matrix of coefficients must be nonzero). To apply this to real life you just need to come up with a real life situation where you get a system of linear equations. On the other hand, though, when first introducing the determinant to someone this might just seem like voodoo.
 


the two are related. and the explanation is a little backwards. having determinant zero is not necessary for a solution to exist but rather it is sufficient.

(this discussion only applies to maps between spaces of the same dimension.)
if the determinant is non zero, then an n dimensional block is transformed into another n dimensional block, i.e. the dimension of the image space is the same as that of the source space.

It follows that the image space is equal to the entire target space, and hence that every equation has a solution. On the other hand even if a linear map from n space to n space lowers dimension, so that the image is a proper subspace of the target, some equations will still have solutions, but not all.
 


How's about considering the way determinants were discovered to begin with, namely in relation to finding the solution point for a set of N N-dimensional linear equations. That's certainly tangible :-)
 

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