How do gravitational fields and waves interact with black holes and FTL travel?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction of gravitational fields and waves with black holes, particularly focusing on the hypothetical graviton and its implications for faster-than-light (FTL) travel. Participants explore theoretical aspects of gravitational fields, their creation, and the nature of gravitational interactions in the context of black holes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the expected speed of the graviton, suggesting that if it were to mediate gravitational force, it would not conform to normal FTL rules, which raises implications for black holes' gravitational effects on the universe.
  • Another participant argues that a gravitational field does not need to travel and can be felt statically around a black hole, proposing that gravitational fields may be created outside the black hole despite the matter being inside.
  • A further point is made regarding the mediation of static gravitational field effects by virtual particles, which are said to act instantaneously at large distances, while dynamic effects would involve real particles originating from the black hole's horizon.
  • One participant emphasizes that static configurations do not involve movement and critiques the use of "virtual particles" in the context of black holes, suggesting that classical physics is more appropriate for describing gravitational interactions.
  • There is a distinction made between the concepts of "real particles" and "gravitons," with a preference for discussing gravitational fields and waves instead.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of gravitational fields, the role of virtual particles, and the appropriateness of using quantum terminology in the context of black holes. No consensus is reached regarding these points.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the discussion, such as the dependence on definitions of gravitational fields and particles, and the unresolved nature of how gravitational fields are created in relation to black holes.

craigi
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How fast do we expect the hypothetical graviton to travel?

It seems that if the graviton were to mediate the gravitational force then it wouldn't be subject to the normal FTL rules otherwise black holes would have no gravitational effect on the rest of the universe.

What's the current understanding of this?
 
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First, a gravitational field does not need to travel at all. You may feel a static gravitational field around a black hole.

Second, even if a gravitational field travels from the black hole, it may be created OUTSIDE of the black hole. In this way it can reach you without a FTL travel.

How can a gravitational field be created outside if the matter is inside? That's because the static gravitational field also has energy (equivalent to a mass via E=mc^2), so gravitational field may be created by gravitational field itself.

By contrast, electromagnetic field cannot be created by electromagnetic field itself. That's because electromagnetic field is created by charge, while electromagnetic field itself is not charged.
 
So the static gravitational field effects would be mediated by the virtual particle which has no upper limit to its speed and acts instantaneously at an arbitrarily large distance. Dynamic gravitational field effects would be mediated by a real particle that orginiates on the horizon of the black hole. For an infalling observer it must originate at the apparent horizon rather than the absolute horizon, right?
 
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craigi said:
So the static gravitational field effects would be mediated by the virtual particle which has no upper limit to its speed and acts instantaneously at an arbitrarily large distance.
A static configuration does not involve something which moves with an infinite velocity. A static configuration involves something which moves with a zero velocity, i.e. does not move at all. That's what the word "static" means: not moving.

Note also that I don't use the words "virtual particle". Tha's because virtual particles do not exist. They are merely a convenient mathematical tool useful for approximate calculations when interactions are not strong. Moreover, they are used mostly in quantum physics, while gravitational attraction by the black hole is better described with classical (not quantum) physics. So in the context of black holes, it is better to avoid the "virtual-particle" language.

Furthermore, in the context of classical gravity, even the concepts such as "real particle" or "graviton" are not appropriate. It is better to speak of gravitational fields and gravitational waves.
 
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