How do I derive the step on the formula of distance of source to field point.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on deriving the formula for the distance between a source and a field point in the context of physics, particularly focusing on the mathematical approximation involved when the distance to the source is much smaller than the distance to the field point. Participants explore the use of Taylor series and binomial expansions in this derivation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the formula for the distance between the source and the field point, introducing the variables involved and the relationship between them.
  • Another participant suggests that for small values of \( r' \) compared to \( r \), the square root can be approximated using a Taylor expansion, indicating that higher-order terms can be neglected.
  • Several participants discuss the Taylor series expansion for the square root function and its application to the problem, with one noting that the approximation leads to a simplification of the original formula.
  • There is mention of the binomial theorem and its application in deriving the approximation, with participants seeking clarification on how to apply it correctly.
  • One participant expresses a desire for further derivation and understanding of the concepts discussed, indicating a need for a refresher on infinite and Taylor series.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the use of Taylor series and binomial expansions for approximating the formula, but there is no consensus on the best method to derive the approximation or the completeness of the derivations provided.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the higher-order terms in the expansion and the implications of neglecting them. There is also a recognition that the approximations depend on the condition \( r' << r \), which may not hold in all scenarios.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and practitioners in physics and mathematics who are interested in approximation methods, particularly in the context of electrostatics and related fields.

yungman
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Let [itex]\;\vec r\;'\;[/itex] be position vector pointing to the source. [itex]\;\vec r\;[/itex] be the position vector pointing to a field point. Therefore the distance from the source and field point is:

[tex]\vec {\eta} =\vec r -\vec r\;' \;\hbox { and }\; \eta = \sqrt{r^2+r'^2 - 2rr'cos\theta}= r \sqrt{1+\left (\frac{r'}{r}\right )^2 -2\frac{r'}{r} cos \theta}[/tex]

Where [itex]\;\theta\;[/itex] is the angle between the two vector.

For r'<<r, Why is the book than say

[tex]\vec {\eta} =\vec r -\vec r\;' \;\hbox { and }\; \eta = \sqrt{r^2+r'^2 - 2rr'cos\theta}= r \sqrt{1+\left (\frac{r'}{r}\right )^2 -2\frac{r'}{r} cos \theta} = r \left (1-\frac {r'}{r} cos \theta\right )[/tex]

I know for r'<<r, [itex]\left ( \frac {r'}{r}\right )^2\approx \;0[/itex]. But how can you remove the square root.
 
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To first order, for |x|<1:
[tex]\sqrt{1+x}=1+\frac{x}{2}+O[x^2][/tex]so basically the squared term you have under the radical it too small to bother with.

You can derive this from expanding (1+x)1/2 with a Taylor expansion about x=0, or just use the binomial theorem.
 
Thanks for the response, can you show me how to derive this?

Alan
 
The Taylor series for the square root reads

[tex]\sqrt{1+x}=1+x/2+O(x^2)[/tex]

Thus to order [itex]r'/r[/itex] you immediately obtain the approximation given by your book. That's one way to obtain the multipole expansion of the electrostatic field in terms of its sources. It's not a very clever way, but it works.:wink:
 
yungman said:
Thanks for the response, can you show me how to derive this?

[tex]d/dx(\sqrt{1+x})=\frac{1}{2}\frac{1}{\sqrt{1+x}}[/tex]
so evaluted at x=0 gives 1/2.

So the Taylor expansion is f(x)=1+x/2 since f(0)=sqrt(1+0)=1, and f(x)~f(0)+f'(0)x+...
 
vanhees71 said:
That's one way to obtain the multipole expansion of the electrostatic field in terms of its sources. It's not a very clever way, but it works.:wink:

That's the only way I can think of! I think I can get the second order terms but higher terms would be tedious because of that squared term in the radical, but a computer could probably get the higher order terms without trouble.
 
I thought Bi-Nomial is:

[tex]\frac 1 {\sqrt {1+\epsilon}}\approx (1-\frac 1 2 \epsilon + \frac 3 8 \epsilon^2 -\frac 5 {16} \epsilon^3...)\;\hbox { for }\;\epsilon \;\hbox { <<1. }[/tex]

How can you show me how to does the other work?
 
Thanks for all your help. I have to go back and read up infinite/Taylor series to refresh my memory.
 
yungman said:
I thought Bi-Nomial is:

[tex]\frac 1 {\sqrt {1+\epsilon}}\approx (1-\frac 1 2 \epsilon + \frac 3 8 \epsilon^2 -\frac 5 {16} \epsilon^3...)\;\hbox { for }\;\epsilon \;\hbox { <<1. }[/tex]

How can you show me how to does the other work?

Here is the Wikipedia article on the binomial theorem for arbitrary exponents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_theorem#Newton.27s_generalized_binomial_theorem

Just use formula (2) and substitute x=1, and you have an expansion for (1+y)^n. So formula (2) gives you the first four terms of a binomial expansion.
 
  • #10
Thanks for all the help.

Alan
 
  • #11
I am glad I run across this. I studied infinite/taylor series so long ago, I forgot they are like fourier, bessels etc. that you can approx a function with the power series.

Thanks

Alan
 

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