How do ionic wind Lifters really work?

[ZapperZ]

I have a metal wire and a flat metal surface, in air, with a high voltage source across them, with none of the circuitry connected to ground, and I raise the voltage enough to create a corona around the positively-charged wire, but not enough to create a corona around the less curved negative plate or a completely ionized path between them:

1. Because of electron avalanches and stuff, air molecules next to the positive wire essentially give the positive wire electrons and become positive ions.
2. The newly created positive ions will be repelled from the positive wire and attracted to the negative plate.
3. Since they're gas molecules, I guess the ions bounce all over the place, but migrate relatively slowly (compared to their bouncing speed) from the positive to the negative electrode. I guess there's no reason why this behavior would be different in the corona region compared to the neutral, unipolar region. (Is there?)
4. As they bounce off neutral air, but with a net flow in one direction, they impart momentum on the neutral air molecules that they hit. These now have a net flow in one direction, too, but aren't attracted to the plate, which is the only thing that causes lift in these devices.
5. After traveling through neutral air, they reach the negative plate, where they take an electron (or two?) from the plate and become neutral again. After becoming neutral, they bounce around with no net drift in anyone direction.

Is there anything wrong with the way I am imagining this?

Er.. have you ever tried putting a gas in between a high voltage? Unless you have a cathode (electron) source to ionize the gas beforehand, these gasses do not give up their electrons to the electrodes quietly. If they do, we won't have lightning. The so-called avalanche effects are from electrons emitted from the metals due to field emission. These electrons trigger a cascade effect that can cause other electron to be liberated from the metals due to secondary electron emission. None of these effects are due solely to the field alone.

Zz.

 

[Omegatron]

Er.. have you ever tried putting a gas in between a high voltage? Unless you have a cathode (electron) source to ionize the gas beforehand, these gasses do not give up their electrons to the electrodes quietly. If they do, we won't have lightning. The so-called avalanche effects are from electrons emitted from the metals due to field emission. These electrons trigger a cascade effect that can cause other electron to be liberated from the metals due to secondary electron emission. None of these effects are due solely to the field alone.
Zz.

As I said, "because of electron avalanches and stuff". The net result is that the air molecules give up their electrons, become ions, and fly away from the electrode.

 

[ZapperZ]

As I said, "because of electron avalanches and stuff". The net result is that the air molecules give up their electrons, become ions, and fly away from the electrode.

Yeah, but this is a known effect. Your fluorescent lights work this way. But creating a "lift"?

Zz.

 

[Omegatron]

Yeah, but this is a known effect. Your fluorescent lights work this way. But creating a "lift"?
Zz.

See step 4.

By lift I of course am referring to Lifters. Ionic breezes work on the same principle, but don't lift. I just mean that step 4 is the only cause of air flow. (As opposed to crackpot anti-gravity whatever for the Lifters.)

 

[ZapperZ]

See step 4.

By lift I of course am referring to Lifters. Ionic breezes work on the same principle, but don't lift. I just mean that step 4 is the only cause of air flow. (As opposed to crackpot anti-gravity whatever for the Lifters.)

Sorry, but you're assuming an ion bumping into a neutral particle does nothing to that neutral particle. Besides, how much of a "lift" do you think you'll get from nothing but a bunch of ionized gas molecules momentum transfer? Does your fluorescent light bulb buldges at it ends due to such a thing?

Zz.

 

[Omegatron]

Sorry, but you're assuming an ion bumping into a neutral particle does nothing to that neutral particle.

I am assuming the same things happen as they always do when particles collide. As to whether they react in any way, I asked about that. I'm sure it depends heavily on what the two particles are.

Besides, how much of a "lift" do you think you'll get from nothing but a bunch of ionized gas molecules momentum transfer? Does your fluorescent light bulb buldges at it ends due to such a thing?
Zz.

You do know what a Lifter is, right?

 

[ZapperZ]

I am assuming the same things happen as they always do when particles collide. As to whether they react in any way, I asked about that. I'm sure it depends heavily on what the two particles are.

But they don't. But this again misses the point I brought up earlier. You DON'T get such an ionization simply by putting across a field, at least not in a controlled fashion. You can ARCING when there is a breakdown of air, gas, etc. If you want a jolt instead of a "lift", then I suppose this would be fine. So your "capacitor" configuration doesn't work until you get an introduction of an electron source to ionize the gas. So far, you seem to be relying on the assumed-reliable source from field emission, possibly from the same electrodes?

From what I have read, no such demonstration has been performed, and certainly not from a DC field. A "cascading" effect of electron generation also is very difficult to get from metallic surfaces because metals, in general, have very low secondary electron yield. So such a thing, in your configuration, is not a given.

You do know what a Lifter is, right?

Only from what I gathered in the OP.

Zz.

 

[Omegatron]

But they don't. But this again misses the point I brought up earlier. You DON'T get such an ionization simply by putting across a field, at least not in a controlled fashion. You can ARCING when there is a breakdown of air, gas, etc. If you want a jolt instead of a "lift", then I suppose this would be fine. So your "capacitor" configuration doesn't work until you get an introduction of an electron source to ionize the gas. So far, you seem to be relying on the assumed-reliable source from field emission, possibly from the same electrodes?

The initial ionization is caused by random events like cosmic rays, UV photons, etc. and then the avalanches are self-sustaining, as far as I know. The conduction region is limited by the potential gradient, and doesn't extend beyond a certain point (depending on geometry, configuration) so there is no arc. Creating a non-arcing corona from a DC voltage around an electrode is well-documented and explained.

Only from what I gathered in the OP.
Zz.

They're just a very lightweight (balsa wood, etc), externally-powered setup with this effect pushing air downwards and lifting up the framework and electrodes. Some claim that there is more to the lift than just the ion wind as I described, but most respectable people say there isn't.

 

[ZapperZ]

The initial ionization is caused by random events like cosmic rays, UV photons, etc. and then the avalanches are self-sustaining, as far as I know. The conduction region is limited by the potential gradient, and doesn't extend beyond a certain point (depending on geometry, configuration) so there is no arc. Creating a non-arcing corona from a DC voltage around an electrode is well-documented and explained.

I know about this. I even published a paper on a "corona" on the inside of an evacuated dielectric tube. However, this isn't due to just a field. There are actually electrons playing a major part in ionizing the gas. This is in your fluorescent tube. You just don't get this from what you describe, i.e. molecules of gas going to an anode and then dumping their electrons. This is what I mean as it not happening JUST due to the field.

They're just a very lightweight (balsa wood, etc), externally-powered setup with this effect pushing air downwards and lifting up the framework and electrodes. Some claim that there is more to the lift than just the ion wind as I described, but most respectable people say there isn't.

Still, I'd like to see something like this generating a lift. How about some quantitative analysis here?

Zz.

 

[Omegatron]

You just don't get this from what you describe, i.e. molecules of gas going to an anode and then dumping their electrons. This is what I mean as it not happening JUST due to the field.

Then what does happen?

Still, I'd like to see something like this generating a lift.

When we say "lift" we just mean "the electrodes and framework lift themselves up against gravity". We can use the word "thrust" instead, if "lift" means something different for you. Examples:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/lifter4.html
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm
http://www.markwilson.com/ioncraft/" has a video from the 60s showing a similar device.

How about some quantitative analysis here?
Zz.

Here's the most plausible-looking analysis I know of: http://www.blazelabs.com/l-intro.asp
And here's some related patents:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...223,038.WKU.&OS=PN/3,223,038&RS=PN/3,223,038"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&s1=3130945.WKU.&OS=PN/3130945&RS=PN/3130945"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...919,698.WKU.&OS=PN/6,919,698&RS=PN/6,919,698"

 

[ZapperZ]

Then what does happen?
When we say "lift" we just mean "the electrodes and framework lift themselves up against gravity". We can use the word "thrust" instead, if "lift" means something different for you. Examples:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/lifter4.html
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm
http://www.markwilson.com/ioncraft/" has a video from the 60s showing a similar device.
Here's the most plausible-looking analysis I know of: http://www.blazelabs.com/l-intro.asp
And here's some related patents:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...223,038.WKU.&OS=PN/3,223,038&RS=PN/3,223,038"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&s1=3130945.WKU.&OS=PN/3130945&RS=PN/3130945"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...919,698.WKU.&OS=PN/6,919,698&RS=PN/6,919,698"

1. Having a patent does not mean it has been demonstrated to work. We have had this discussion before regarding the "free energy" machine patent and the "antigravity" Podkletnov effect in this very forum.

2. I am familiar with all those website. The 2nd one is a quack. I mean, using Barfield-Brown effect as the POSSIBLE mechanism? Notice that this is what makes is VERY difficult to tackle a subject like this. You started with what is a "reasonable" argument of ionization of gas molecules using a rather tested and conventional mechanism, but then you start citing websites that are using something out in left-field and NOT verified. This is NOT the same mechanism that you've been describing.

3. I still have not seen any quantitative derivation to justify that the ionization of just air molecules could provide such a lift. I did a quick check of the first website in case they've added something new there to show where they might have published their results. I didn't see any. Did I miss where they showed this?

4. We have a standing policy here that we tend to doubt things that are only reported on someone's webpage. One of the things we try to instill is that people should pay attention to the sources of info that they're getting, and we will rely on reputable peer-review journals heavily on things like this. You and everyone here should not settle for mediocre reporting of "facts", and should demand a higher quality of information than just hand-waving and unjustified claims.

Please note that this is one of those rare times that such crackpot links will be allowed on here, simply to demonstrate a point. Typically, such advertisement of dubious links like these are deleted off postings.

Zz.

PS. BTW, if such a device is an "antigravity", then a helicopter is an antigravity machine too!

 

[Omegatron]

1. Having a patent does not mean it has been demonstrated to work. We have had this discussion before regarding the "free energy" machine patent and the "antigravity" Podkletnov effect in this very forum.

Ugh. This has nothing to do with antigravity or free energy. You asked for examples of actual working devices.

So you don't believe that any ionic wind device really works?

but then you start citing websites that are using something out in left-field and NOT verified. This is NOT the same mechanism that you've been describing.

Then what is it? They do work. Something has to make them work. If it's not the mechanism that I described then it has to be something else.

3. I still have not seen any quantitative derivation to justify that the ionization of just air molecules could provide such a lift.

I don't understand what's wrong with my description except that you dispute that ions can be created by contact with a charged electrode?

4. We have a standing policy here that we tend to doubt things that are only reported on someone's webpage.

I have a standing policy to doubt everything that I read.

Please note that this is one of those rare times that such crackpot links will be allowed on here, simply to demonstrate a point.

You asked for them.

I'd just like to point out how absurd this attitude is, and that I've seen it before on these forums. I think you need to change your policies.

If people can't even mention crackpot devices, even while asking how they really work based on real physics, in the Scepticism and debunking section, then what is the point of this section??

 

[ZapperZ]

Ugh. This has nothing to do with antigravity or free energy. You asked for examples of actual working devices.

I didn't say it does. I said that just because it HAD A PATENT, doesn't mean it works! You obviously cited the given patent for a reason, maybe you want to convince me that it is legitimate. I'm giving you a reason why just by having a patent doesn't mean it actually works!

So you don't believe that any ionic wind device really works?

No, I ASKED for a description of what is going on. The explanation I have so far is contradictory and inconsistent, and I've given you the reasons why.

Then what is it? They do work. Something has to make them work. If it's not the mechanism that I described then it has to be something else.

Exactly my question! I'm not the one selling this. When I disputed the explanation you gave, it doesn't mean I have an alternative. I'm not the one trying to sell this. The websites given made no quantitative derivation that the proposed mechanism actually CAN produce the lift.

I don't understand what's wrong with my description except that you dispute that ions can be created by contact with a charged electrode?

I said that it isn't THAT easy in the CONTEXT of creating a WHOLE CORONA. If it were, why do we need a thermionic cathode IN ADDITION to the potential difference in your fluorescent bulb? Again, I'm using an established, easily found application that you are already using as a counter example.

I have a standing policy to doubt everything that I read.

You asked for them.

I'd just like to point out how absurd this attitude is, and that I've seen it before on these forums. I think you need to change your policies.

Come again? I believe that you AGREED to these policies when you joined the forum. Now think again what is absurd here. You agreed to it, and now you said "Oh wait, I don't agree to it now that I'm in".

As for being skeptical, why weren't you when you read these websites? Were you not the least bit skeptical to know that, if such a thing were valid, that they didn't publish it first in peer-reviewed journals where experts in the field can analyze and reproduce it? It appears that you weren't skeptical enough. And in case you forgot, I ASKED, repeatedly, for the quantitative derivation to show that whatever they're using to explain the lift can actually produce numbers to support what they are seeing. Do you think I'm NOT being skeptical?

People can't even mention crackpot devices, even if they're asking how they really work based on real physics, in the Scepticism and debunking section? Then what is the point of this section??

Not if they were advertized without cause. Last time I checked, I clearly stated that in THIS CASE, such free advertisement for these sites is relevant to the discussion. However, in case the policy is MISUNDERSTOOD to mean that such a thing is generally allowed, I wanted to be VERY CLEAR that it isn't! Other quacks have tried to justify their "rights" to post their sites simply by pointing out that such-and-such threads also contain crackpot links. I want to nip that notion right in the bud.

Zz.

 

[Omegatron]

Reading through the Kronos patent, I've found a description of the effect that sounds exactly the same as mine.

A number of patents describe ion generation using an electrode (termed the "corona electrode"), accelerating and, thereby, accelerating the ions toward another electrode (termed the "accelerating", "collecting" or "target" electrode), thereby imparting momentum to the ions in a direction toward the accelerating electrode. Collisions between the ions and an intervening fluid, such as surrounding air molecules, transfer the momentum of the ions to the fluid inducing a corresponding movement of the fluid to achieve an overall movement in a desired fluid flow direction.

If this effect can't work, they must be making money by selling imaginary products.

Using Kronos' patented corona-based technology, we have built air handlers that propel air at speeds ranging from 0 to over 1,700 feet per minute

 

[Omegatron]

As for being skeptical, why weren't you when you read these websites?

Have you even read the beginning of this thread?

 

[ZapperZ]

Have you even read the beginning of this thread?

That's how I got what you meant by "lifters" and the mechanism for it.

Zz.

 

[Adzoe]

An "ionic" wind radiates omnidirectionally from any coronal source. That's how the effect was discovered. Soon after this discovery it was found that surfaces having the same charge as the corona source repelled that wind and surfaces having the oposite charge attracted it. This led to a plethora of working and hypothetical inventions utilizng the effect. Most of these inventions created air or other fluid motion in a desired direction. Some, however, were more interested in the equal and opposite reaction required by the theory of conservation of energy. If air is moved by a device in one direction then there must be an equal force on the device causing that motion, and such force would be in an opposite direction.
The force has traditionally been small, and the expenditure of energy needed to create that small force has been much larger than the net effect, ie.: efficiency has been low.

The Kronos Air Technologies developments have changed that. Their units have been shown to have 10% greater efficiency than fans. These efficiencies are brought about by positioning of the corona electrodes in relation to each other and so-called "attracting" electrodes, and by power supply designs that maximize the corona and maintain it just below the point of arcing. These factors allow a greater coronal source density and result in higher levels of output wind.

The term "asymmetrical capacitor" is used to describe an effect not dependent on capacitance in the normal sense, and is probably thus a misnomer. We are not dealing with capacitance per se when applied to coronal devices. The more perfect a capacitor the less leakage there will be between its plates. There is a tradeoff between power densities, dielectric properties, and leakage.

Intentional leakage at the highest possible densities is the essence of ionic wind drivers, and the so called capacitor is constantly and intentionally being drained back to the energy source powering the corona. The more perfect the wiring supplying the coronal system, the more effective that system is in generating propulsive force. It is therefore probably more correct to speak of these asymmetric plates rather as anodes and cathodes than as capacitors, though some capacitance may be present since there is an air dielectric between them.