Other How do physicists practically switch fields to non-adjacent subfields?

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Hi all,
Hope you are doing well.

I'm a current grad student in applied geophysics and will finish my PhD in about 2 years (previously did a HBSc in Physics, did research in exp. quantum optics). I chose my current field because of its practicality and its clear connection to industry, not out of passion (a clear mistake).

I notice that a lot of people (colleagues) switch to different subfields of physics once they graduate and enter post docs. But 95% of these cases fall into either of these two categories:

1) The new field is adjacent to their PhD area of study (e.g., Experimental HEP to astroparticle physics, condensed matter to material sciences, fluid dynamics to atmospheric and climate science).

2) The new field is less sophisticated in quantitative aspects but drastically different from the PhD area of study (e.g., high energy theory to theoretical neuroscience, quantum optics/laser physics to biophotonics, statistical physics to financial modeling/applied stats).

But I have rarely seen cases where a drastic switch was made within physics. Say going from geophysics to quantum information or biophysics to condensed matter. The primary reason is obvious. These diverging topics attract different crowds in the first place, with different styles of thinking and aptitudes. But if a person is willing to put in the effort and is indeed motivated to change course, what is the best way to switch to a drastically different field? (if possible at all) Do you know of people who did such things? Obviously a second PhD is not an option, but what is? (practically speaking)

I am personally thinking of switching to a different area of physics after I finish my PhD. I'm thinking of plasma physics, quantum information or photonics (all in computational/experimental). I acknowledge that it would be anything but easy and I should probably make financial and time sacrifices, but I wanted to hear the community's thoughts on the subject.

Stay well and happy holidays (in advance).

 

[CrysPhys]

I am personally thinking of switching to a different area of physics after I finish my PhD. I'm thinking of plasma physics, quantum information or photonics (all in computational/experimental). I acknowledge that it would be anything but easy and I should probably make financial and time sacrifices, but I wanted to hear the community's thoughts on the subject.

What are you considering for your next phase? A postdoc? A job in industry? Or ...?

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Ultimate goal is to go into industry but a postdoc would be great if it helps with the transition.
Edit (typo)

 

[Frabjous]

Do you have any steps in mind?

 

[Choppy]

Once you have your PhD, the work you do as a post doc often comes about through a combination of the skill set you have and the scientific network that you develop. Obviously, the further apart the fields are in terms of the skill sets needed to work in them, the less likely the transition. But if you want to make the jump, you to develop the skills needed to work in that new field, or at least a desirable subset of them. So that's that place to start. That, and start building up your network in the new field. Attend talks/conferences specific to it. Read as broadly as you can in it so that you understand as much as you can about the current problems people are working on. Seek out people who are doing that work and talk to them.

 

[CrysPhys]

I'm a current grad student in applied geophysics and will finish my PhD in about 2 years (previously did a HBSc in Physics, did research in exp. quantum optics). I chose my current field because of its practicality and its clear connection to industry, not out of passion (a clear mistake).

<<Emphasis added>> The regret you express here does not bode well for fulfilling your ultimate goal:

Ultimate goal is to go into industry but a postdoc would be great if it helps with the transition.
Edit (typo)

The categories in which you have partitioned switching fields after a PhD also doesn't bode well for fulfilling your ultimate goal:

1) The new field is adjacent to their PhD area of study (e.g., Experimental HEP to astroparticle physics, condensed matter to material sciences, fluid dynamics to atmospheric and climate science).

2) The new field is less sophisticated in quantitative aspects but drastically different from the PhD area of study (e.g., high energy theory to theoretical neuroscience, quantum optics/laser physics to biophotonics, statistical physics to financial modeling/applied stats).

But I have rarely seen cases where a drastic switch was made within physics. Say going from geophysics to quantum information or biophysics to condensed matter. The primary reason is obvious. These diverging topics attract different crowds in the first place, with different styles of thinking and aptitudes. But if a person is willing to put in the effort and is indeed motivated to change course, what is the best way to switch to a drastically different field? (if possible at all) Do you know of people who did such things? Obviously a second PhD is not an option, but what is? (practically speaking)

You are making subjective judgments about the value of particular fields, with a hierarchy of sophistications, and about what you consider to be bona fide physics (a sentiment often expressed by students here). You appear to aiming towards what you consider to be more sophisticated 'researchy' fields:

I am personally thinking of switching to a different area of physics after I finish my PhD. I'm thinking of plasma physics, quantum information or photonics (all in computational/experimental). I acknowledge that it would be anything but easy and I should probably make financial and time sacrifices, but I wanted to hear the community's thoughts on the subject.

You need to consider whether industry is compatible with your aspirations. Basic research in physics (as in the glory days of Bell Labs and IBM Watson) has been severely cutback in recent decades. Still exists, but much more scarce than previously.

At any rate, if you wish to switch fields, take inventory of your knowledge, skills, and experiences. You need to leverage those to offer value to a hiring manager (whether an employer in industry or a professor in a university). To get to a different field, you might need one or more intermediate positions. In particular, look for positions with interdisciplinary interactions. Once you establish your value in one field and make personal connections, you might have the opportunity to make a transition.

E.g., one student I know got her PhD EE in optical devices. She got a postdoc with a biology professor who was starting research in implantable sensors. The student had expertise in devices, but not biology. The professor had expertise in biology, but not devices. So their expertise was complementary. The postdoc permitted the student to expand her research activities into bioengineering.

We don't have details of your background so far. But, e.g., if you have expertise in computer modelling and simulation, find a job in a company or university to which you can add value (even if it's not in a field you aspire to) and which also does work in the fields that you do aspire to. Make a good showing, make personal connections, and wait for the appropriate opportunity to transition.

Similarly, e.g., if you have expertise in acoustic or ultrasonic wave propagation, it's an easy transition to optical wave propagation ... once you've gotten your foot in the door and established yourself.

A lot depends on how thorough a grounding you got in core fundamentals in your 'applied' degree and how 'researchy' a physics field you aspire to.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

ds

<<Emphasis added>> The regret you express here does not bode well for fulfilling your ultimate goal:



The categories in which you have partitioned switching fields after a PhD also doesn't bode well for fulfilling your ultimate goal:


You are making subjective judgments about the value of particular fields, with a hierarchy of sophistications, and about what you consider to be bona fide physics (a sentiment often expressed by students here). You appear to aiming towards what you consider to be more sophisticated 'researchy' fields:



You need to consider whether industry is compatible with your aspirations. Basic research in physics (as in the glory days of Bell Labs and IBM Watson) has been severely cutback in recent decades. Still exists, but much more scarce than previously.

At any rate, if you wish to switch fields, take inventory of your knowledge, skills, and experiences. You need to leverage those to offer value to a hiring manager (whether an employer in industry or a professor in a university). To get to a different field, you might need one or more intermediate positions. In particular, look for positions with interdisciplinary interactions. Once you establish your value in one field and make personal connections, you might have the opportunity to make a transition.

E.g., one student I know got her PhD EE in optical devices. She got a postdoc with a biology professor who was starting research in implantable sensors. The student had expertise in devices, but not biology. The professor had expertise in biology, but not devices. So their expertise was complementary. The postdoc permitted the student to expand her research activities into bioengineering.

We don't have details of your background so far. But, e.g., if you have expertise in computer modelling and simulation, find a job in a company or university to which you can add value (even if it's not in a field you aspire to) and which also does work in the fields that you do aspire to. Make a good showing, make personal connections, and wait for the appropriate opportunity to transition.

Similarly, e.g., if you have expertise in acoustic or ultrasonic wave propagation, it's an easy transition to optical wave propagation ... once you've gotten your foot in the door and established yourself.

A lot depends on how thorough a grounding you got in core fundamentals in your 'applied' degree and how 'researchy' a physics field you aspire to.

Thank you for your comments! I can see why you mentioned that my kind of regret does not bode well. I chose plasma physics primarily due to my personal interest in the type of physics it involves (EM/stat mech and computational physics which I enjoyed more over other subjects). Its recent connection to industry is simply an added benefit in my mind and not the primary factor.

To your point about the hierarchical view of subfields in physics, I totally agree. I didn't mean to project common misbeliefs about these fictious hierarchies. All I meant to say for scenario 2 was that people use a subset of their previous core training and combine it with new skills/training in their next field of research.
All fields are researchy in away and have their own subtleties. One can't judge sophistication with a single metric obviously. I am trying to aim for a "type" of sophistication that I always liked and were discouraged from pursuing in the past, and this is very subjective of course.

(since you asked) My background is in computational physics / ML applications in geophysics. The work I do right now is more like geophysical data processing for predictive modeling of mineral deposits. My undergraduate degree was a standard honors physics curriculum that included all upper division courses. So in a way, I can pitch my physics + ML experience for related projects in computational plasma physics.

I liked your examples of how such transitions are done (transitioning through intermediate positions). I could have seen this type of transitioning work very well if I had aimed for fields like time series analysis, satellite remote sensing or mining engineering However, I fear that the gap in my case is too wide, and is close to starting over. I am considering doing an MSc in a plasma physics lab, which would (on paper) give me some training in the field, opportunity to network and publish. Do you think this could be a good idea?

Thanks again.

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Once you have your PhD, the work you do as a post doc often comes about through a combination of the skill set you have and the scientific network that you develop. Obviously, the further apart the fields are in terms of the skill sets needed to work in them, the less likely the transition. But if you want to make the jump, you to develop the skills needed to work in that new field, or at least a desirable subset of them. So that's that place to start. That, and start building up your network in the new field. Attend talks/conferences specific to it. Read as broadly as you can in it so that you understand as much as you can about the current problems people are working on. Seek out people who are doing that work and talk to them.

Thanks a lot Choppy! I've been doing some reading and searching about what people in the field are doing. Maybe finding mentors in the field is a good idea as well, to get a wider perspective on issues and building connections in the process.

 

[CrysPhys]

(since you asked) My background is in computational physics / ML applications in geophysics. The work I do right now is more like geophysical data processing for predictive modeling of mineral deposits. My undergraduate degree was a standard honors physics curriculum that included all upper division courses. So in a way, I can pitch my physics + ML experience for related projects in computational plasma physics.

I liked your examples of how such transitions are done (transitioning through intermediate positions). I could have seen this type of transitioning work very well if I had aimed for fields like time series analysis, satellite remote sensing or mining engineering However, I fear that the gap in my case is too wide, and is close to starting over. I am considering doing an MSc in a plasma physics lab, which would (on paper) give me some training in the field, opportunity to network and publish. Do you think this could be a good idea?

<<Emphasis added>> Not as a first option. If your PhD is already in computational physics/ML applied to geophysics and you have the core foundational physics coursework, transitioning to computational plasma physics should not be a far stretch. Depends on what the competition out there for particular slots is, of course. I would get together a candidate list of the companies that is doing the type of work you are interested in and pitch yourself. Get their feedback. If your computational physics/ML experience is dispositive, and they are willing to grant you some time to come up to speed on plasma physics, you're all set. If they are not willing to grant you some time, then ask whether an MSc with experience in a plasma physics lab would make you a compelling hire.

I'm in the US and not familiar with the UK educational system. But if you once you get a PhD in geophysics (is the degree actually a PhD applied physics specializing in geophysics?) can you even go back for a MSc in physics (specializing in plasmas)? How would that work?

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

<<Emphasis added>> Not as a first option. If your PhD is already in computational physics/ML applied to geophysics and you have the core foundational physics coursework, transitioning to computational plasma physics should not be a far stretch. Depends on what the competition out there for particular slots is, of course. I would get together a candidate list of the companies that is doing the type of work you are interested in and pitch yourself. Get their feedback. If your computational physics/ML experience is dispositive, and they are willing to grant you some time to come up to speed on plasma physics, you're all set. If they are not willing to grant you some time, then ask whether an MSc with experience in a plasma physics lab would make you a compelling hire.

I'm in the US and not familiar with the UK educational system. But if you once you get a PhD in geophysics (is the degree actually a PhD applied physics specializing in geophysics?) can you even go back for a MSc in physics (specializing in plasmas)? How would that work?

Thank you for the follow up! I appreciate your time.
That's what I have planned as a first test, to talk to companies, people who work there on linkedin and get their thoughts. I can't trust one opinion obviously, so I am planning to cast a wide net with this search.

To your last point, my PhD degree will be issued by our Physics department (I'm a Canadian in Canada), and as a student, I had to go through all degree requirements that other physics grad students went through. I am considering the plasma lab at the University of Saskatchewan (their Physics department) because they have the only tokamak machine in the entire country (not willing to take the risk to go to the US for this). Europe is also an option but their programs are self-funded and foreign students may not be permitted to access certain facilities, negating the whole edge they have over us here.

 

[CrysPhys]

To your last point, my PhD degree will be issued by our Physics department (I'm a Canadian in Canada), and as a student, I had to go through all degree requirements that other physics grad students went through. I am considering the plasma lab at the University of Saskatchewan (their Physics department) because they have the only tokamak machine in the entire country (not willing to take the risk to go to the US for this). Europe is also an option but their programs are self-funded and foreign students may not be permitted to access certain facilities, negating the whole edge they have over us here.

Sorry about the mix-up in countries. I did look at your profile, but wrote UK instead of Canada by mistake.

Regardless, in Canada, if you have a PhD Physics from one university, can you apply for a MSc Physics at another?

Even if you can, you should consider the impact on your resume carefully. If you list your education in standard reverse chronological order, it would read:

MSc Physics
PhD Physics
BSc Physics.

If your MSc were in a totally different field, it would be easy to explain. But with all degrees in physics, it would be an anomaly. And hiring managers leafing through a pile of resumes don't care to spend time clarifying anomalies. Perhaps an MSc in a plasma physics lab would help you land a position in a plasma physics lab. But what happens in the future should you want to transition to another field (either voluntarily or involuntarily)? You'll carry this red flag on your resume going forward. You'll need to explain that your PhD Physics program did not equip you to switch fields within physics, so you had to return for a MSc Physics. What would that say about your capability to change fields in the future?

 

[AryaKimiaghalam]

Sorry about the mix-up in countries. I did look at your profile, but wrote UK instead of Canada by mistake.

Regardless, in Canada, if you have a PhD Physics from one university, can you apply for a MSc Physics at another?

Even if you can, you should consider the impact on your resume carefully. If you list your education in standard reverse chronological order, it would read:

MSc Physics
PhD Physics
BSc Physics.

If your MSc were in a totally different field, it would be easy to explain. But with all degrees in physics, it would be an anomaly. And hiring managers leafing through a pile of resumes don't care to spend time clarifying anomalies. Perhaps an MSc in a plasma physics lab would help you land a position in a plasma physics lab. But what happens in the future should you want to transition to another field (either voluntarily or involuntarily)? You'll carry this red flag on your resume going forward. You'll need to explain that your PhD Physics program did not equip you to switch fields within physics, so you had to return for a MSc Physics. What would that say about your capability to change fields in the future?

Well my current PhD and that MSc are nearly orthogonal in details/skills/training involved. On the face value, it would indeed look a little weird (I do have an MSc in physics as well, which could make it a little more unusual?). On the other hand though, experimental/computational plasma physics requires lab experience which can't be gained by self-teaching, that can become part of the argument (you can tell me if I'm wrong here or not).

(For working in physics): I can explain this as a necessary step to gain skills and training in experimental/computational plasma physics considering my background (unless a fusion company thinks self studied knowledge is adequate and agrees to train me on the job). A post doc does not allow for such opportunities especially here in Canada, where post doc positions are VERY limited in the first place.

(For working outside of physics, some other random industry like consulting or finance): I can distinguish degrees by specifying specializations so the sequence would read BSc Physics -> PhD Geophysics - > MSc Plasma Physics. It may indeed negatively affect me from an HR lens, but I think it wouldn't be detrimental.