How do standing waves continue propagating?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the propagation of standing waves in sound and strings, exploring how waves interact when they meet and the implications for their continued movement. Participants examine the nature of wave displacement and pressure, as well as the mechanics of wave reflection and interference.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that in sound waves, the compressed air layers must coincide for a standing wave to form, raising questions about how they continue to propagate after colliding.
  • Others argue that while pressures may cancel when waves meet, the displacements do not, allowing both waves to coexist and propagate.
  • A later reply questions whether displacements might cancel each other out, suggesting that reflected air molecules might only coincide with some of the original molecules, allowing for continued movement.
  • One participant emphasizes that waves involve multiple variables (pressure and displacement for sound waves, tension and kinetic energy for strings), suggesting that energy persists even if one variable is reduced.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on how waves interact and whether displacements cancel out. There is no consensus on the mechanics of wave propagation in this context, and multiple competing explanations are presented.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of wave interaction principles and the complexity of wave behavior involving multiple variables.

yosimba2000
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In a sound wave, air is being compressed and decompressed. If sound is reflected at the end, then to create a standing wave the compressed layer of air coming back must coincide with another compressed layer of air going forward.

If that's the case, how can the compressed airs continue to travel in their respective directions after they hit one another? Wouldn't they just stop moving once they hit each other?

Same for the string. If the original wave starts pointing up, then the reflected wave points down. But wouldn't each point at which the original and reflected wave coincide pull on the same part of the string just as strongly but in opposite directions, and therefore the string would just be flat?

In this image: http://imgur.com/a/1d2f3

The wave going to the right will meet the wave going to left. The right side of the right-traveling wave will go up, and the left side of the left-traveling wave will go down. When they meet, they will be pulling on the same parts of the string. So wouldn't the up and down forces cancel to give a string that's flat everywhere?
 
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yosimba2000 said:
In a sound wave, air is being compressed and decompressed. If sound is reflected at the end, then to create a standing wave the compressed layer of air coming back must coincide with another compressed layer of air going forward.

If that's the case, how can the compressed airs continue to travel in their respective directions after they hit one another? Wouldn't they just stop moving once they hit each other?
Good question because it doesn't make sense at first sight. However, sound waves have varying pressure and they have displacement at any point. The phase of the pressure is 90° out of phase with the displacement. So, although the pressures may cancel, the displacements add together and both waves 'exist'.
 
sophiecentaur said:
Good question because it doesn't make sense at first sight. However, sound waves have varying pressure and they have displacement at any point. The phase of the pressure is 90° out of phase with the displacement. So, although the pressures may cancel, the displacements add together and both waves 'exist'.

But won't the displacements cancel each other out since they meet together with the same force?

Is it possible that the reflected compressed air molecules only coincide with MANY of the original compressed air molecules, but not all? So some of the reflected molecules are able to pass through the original sound by not being hit, then hitting the still air molecules on the other side?
 
yosimba2000 said:
But won't the displacements cancel each other out since they meet together with the same force?

Is it possible that the reflected compressed air molecules only coincide with MANY of the original compressed air molecules, but not all? So some of the reflected molecules are able to pass through the original sound by not being hit, then hitting the still air molecules on the other side?

some weird comments in there, I suspect you don't really understand how waves interact
have a watch of this classic AT&T - Bell Labs video, it covers many wave properties including standing waves

Dave
 
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yosimba2000 said:
But won't the displacements cancel each other out since they meet together with the same force?

Is it possible that the reflected compressed air molecules only coincide with MANY of the original compressed air molecules, but not all? So some of the reflected molecules are able to pass through the original sound by not being hit, then hitting the still air molecules on the other side?
Yes, I said they can in my earlier post. But I also made the point that there is displace AND pressure involved (as in all waves). "Meeting together with the same force" is a bit of a meaningless statement. The pressures can cancel out but the displacements do not. There is still Energy traveling in both directions.
You need to understand more about waves before you can come to valid conclusions about how they should behave. No kind of wave has only one variable involved. Strings have stored energy in the tension and kinetic energy of motion, sound / pressure waves have pressure and displacement and EM waves have magnetic and electric energy. You can reduce one variable to near zero but the energy still exists due to a larger value for the other variable quantity.
 

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