How Do We Visualize the Manifold Structure of a Lie Group?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the manifold structure of Lie groups, specifically how to determine their global properties when the manifold representation is not immediately clear. Participants explore definitions and characteristics of Lie groups, such as connectedness, simple connectedness, and compactness, while referencing specific examples like U(1) and SO(3).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the necessity of defining the topological space to understand a Lie group's properties. Questions arise about how to ascertain a Lie group's manifold structure and the implications of being given a Lie group without explicit topology. There are inquiries into the parameter space of Lie groups and how to transition from dimensionality to a manifold representation.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants sharing their thoughts on the definitions and properties of Lie groups. Some express confusion regarding the assumptions made about the topology and manifold structure, while others seek clarification on how to approach the problem of visualizing these structures. There is a recognition of differing perspectives on the foundational definitions involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of background knowledge in topology and differential geometry, as well as the challenges posed by the lack of explicit definitions in some cases. The original poster emphasizes the need for clarity in the question regarding the manifold structure of Lie groups.

Jason Bennett
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Homework Statement
Determining the manifold picture of a lie group to see its global properties
Relevant Equations
see below
1) How do we determine a Lie group's global properties when the manifold that it represents is not immediately obvious?

Allow me to give the definitions I am working with.

A Lie group G is a differentiable manifold G which is also a group, such that the group multiplication
and the map sending g ∈ G to its inverse g−1 ∈ G, are differentiable (C∞) maps.

As a Lie group is a manifold, one can parametrize the elements g in a small neighbor- hood of the identity e of G, by n real parameters {x1, . . . , xn}. This is simply written as g = g(x1, . . . , xn) and the parametrization is usually chosen in such a way that e = g(0, . . . , 0). The number of independent real parameters (n) is called the dimension of the Lie group.

A Lie group G is connected iff \forall g_1, g_2 \in G there exists a continuous curve connecting the two, i.e. there exists only one connected component.

A Lie group G is simply connected (if all closed curves on the manifold picture of G) can be contracted to a point.

A Lie group is compact if there are no elements infinitely far away fro the others.

The Lie group U(1) is quite easily identified as a circle in its manifold picture. This is connected, not simply connected, and compact.

However, SO(3) can (apparently) be viewed as manifold as such: a filled sphere of fixed radius, with antipodes identified. Once that has been realized, determining the global properties are straight forward. Getting there is another question, and I believe related to answering...

2) How do we algorithmically determine the parameter space of a Lie group – thus seeing it as a manifold?

For instance, for SU(2), we can write the matrix elements as complex, or decomposed with reals + i(reals), and use the det = 1 condition to determine that the Lie group is 3-deimensional. The step from 3-dimensional to a 3-sphere is not clear to me.
 
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I (still) don't see how you get to a Lie group without defining the topological space.
Jason Bennett said:
How do we determine a Lie group's global properties when the manifold that it represents is not immediately obvious?
How do we know it's a Lie group?

Here are some bijections for ##SU(2)##:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/journey-manifold-su2mathbbc-part/
 
Well, if you're told,e.g., SO(3) is a Lie group, you are not explicitly told the topology or manifold structure.
 
WWGD said:
Well, if you're told,e.g., SO(3) is a Lie group, you are not explicitly told the topology or manifold structure.
Sure I am. ##SO(3)## defines the manifold, the set of points, and the requirement of analytic group operations the differential and therewith topological structure.
 
fresh_42 said:
Sure I am. ##SO(3)## defines the manifold, the set of points, and the requirement of analytic group operations the differential and therewith topological structure.
It may be given , e.g., in terms of one of many representations. How do you then recover it all. Or just described in words as a collection of rotations.
 
As soon as you call something a Lie group, as soon do you have to define space and structure. Otherwise it is not a Lie group, so it is what? The question is completely underdetermined. It is as if you asked: "How can I see a ring is an integral domain if I haven't given the ring?" That's nonsense: Let's talk about *** but I will not define ***.

Edit: O.k., then the answer is representation theory, algebraic topology, differential geometry, and cohomology theory. Nothing more to add.
 
But I understood you said the topology was stated explicitly. But it is not always the case; you need to make it up, figure it out by yourself. At any rate, we may just have different assumptions on what we mean here on the object defined, or, as someone famous said, on "What is is".
 
Let's just leave it at Kartofel, Kartofeln ?
 
Double "f", and yes, we need answers from the OP. I find it even difficult to "see" whether a subgroup is closed or not.
 
  • #10
fresh_42 said:
Double "f", and yes, we need answers from the OP. I find it even difficult to "see" whether a subgroup is closed or not.
Kartoffel/Kartofffel? Or Kartuffel/Kartoffel?
 
  • #11
The French and Austrians call them Earth apples.
 
  • #12
C'est derriere: Quest'ce q'on va fair avec les pommes de terre D'Anglaterre?
 
  • #13
I am quite confused by your concern about the background topological space. Can you explain further? Please keep in mind I am very new to this area.
 
  • #14
Jason Bennett said:
I am quite confused by your concern about the background topological space. Can you explain further? Please keep in mind I am very new to this area.
So, you are told "G is a Lie group" and asked to determine its manifold structure? Just want to make sure we have the question down correctly.
 
  • #15
Jason Bennett said:
Homework Statement: Determining the manifold picture of a lie group to see its global properties
Homework Equations: see below

1) How do we determine a Lie group's global properties when the manifold that it represents is not immediately obvious?

Allow me to give the definitions I am working with.

A Lie group G is a differentiable manifold G which is also a group, such that the group multiplication
and the map sending g ∈ G to its inverse g−1 ∈ G, are differentiable (C∞) maps.

As a Lie group is a manifold, one can parametrize the elements g in a small neighbor- hood of the identity e of G, by n real parameters {x1, . . . , xn}. This is simply written as g = g(x1, . . . , xn) and the parametrization is usually chosen in such a way that e = g(0, . . . , 0). The number of independent real parameters (n) is called the dimension of the Lie group.

A Lie group G is connected iff \forall g_1, g_2 \in G there exists a continuous curve connecting the two, i.e. there exists only one connected component.

A Lie group G is simply connected (if all closed curves on the manifold picture of G) can be contracted to a point.

A Lie group is compact if there are no elements infinitely far away fro the others.

The Lie group U(1) is quite easily identified as a circle in its manifold picture. This is connected, not simply connected, and compact.

However, SO(3) can (apparently) be viewed as manifold as such: a filled sphere of fixed radius, with antipodes identified. Once that has been realized, determining the global properties are straight forward. Getting there is another question, and I believe related to answering...

2) How do we algorithmically determine the parameter space of a Lie group – thus seeing it as a manifold?

For instance, for SU(2), we can write the matrix elements as complex, or decomposed with reals + i(reals), and use the det = 1 condition to determine that the Lie group is 3-deimensional. The step from 3-dimensional to a 3-sphere is not clear to me.
WWGD said:
So, you are told "G is a Lie group" and asked to determine its manifold structure? Just want to make sure we have the question down correctly.

Precisely!
 

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