I How do you answer "So what's the practical application....?"

[Andy Resnick]

I do. But here we have the main fundamental difference between the two systems. Europeans are much more used to the fact, that governments (including the EU) decide what to pay for long after the Americans would have shouted "socialism!". And research is often done via university budgets or that of single institutes. All of them usually being funded as a whole by governments and not so much by fees and sponsorship. It's far less direct than in the US. Of course there are sponsored projects, too, but usually you don't read sentences like: "funded by the U.S. army" or similar at the end of papers.

I guess I don't understand- it seems that in both cases, the overwhelming majority of research is funded by government agencies- including the Army, BTW (http://www.arl.army.mil/www/default.cfm?page=29) . In the US, the individual applies for funding which is generally 'portable' (if I go somewhere else, I can almost always take my research funding with me). Are you saying the in Europe, universities/institutes decide which of their faculty to fund? If so, who is/are the 'deciders'?

 

[fresh_42]

Are you saying the in Europe, universities/institutes decide which of their faculty to fund? If so, who is/are the 'deciders'?

I may not speak about the whole of Europe. E.g. I assume the British system to be much more comparable to the American than that of other countries. Universities and institutes have a budget that is broken down to the faculties. So there is a certain amount of money available to them. Whether professors achieve to get additional resources by third parties and to which extend depends on them. If it hasn't changed in recent years, the main pool is the given budget. Decisions are usually made by internal boards.

 

[Swapnil Das]

I suppose you recognize, by title, the situation I am referring to. I don't know if physics people get it as often as math people.

The situation of course is that I tell somebody that I am studying math, and if I mention some specifics, like mention Topology or Algebra, (which I have to sort of explain is not "college algebra"), or whatever. Then comes the question "So what's this used for in..you know, real life?"

As I see it there are two extremes to answer this question:

a) A speech or possible tirade about how this question is not really relevant. Possible comparison of science to art, i.e. "Well, what's the practical application of music?" Trying, perhaps in vain to explain how mathematics doesn't always seek applications but that they often find their uses later, then tell a story about number theory and cryptography. Another variant is that for me, I've studied mathematics for the joy of it and because I think the thinking skills I learned can be applied to anything.

b) Just say some stuff I heard about what people might be using this for. "Topological data analysis!" "Cryptography" (again). "Something in physics!"

The only application I find in studying mathematics or physics is that *I love them!*. What could be better?

 

[symbolipoint]

The only application I find in studying mathematics or physics is that *I love them!*. What could be better?

The original poster has two important points about his question:

• Most students do not have any love for the Mathematics they study
• Most students do not know the practical meaning or value of what they study and want to know how or where it's used in real life.

 

[dkotschessaa]

The original poster has two important points about his question:

• Most students do not have any love for the Mathematics they study
• Most students do not know the practical meaning or value of what they study and want to know how or where it's used in real life.

It's not limited to students. I am more often asked this question by friends/family when they ask me what I am studying. Often they've had no encounters with mathematics other than the usual horrors.

-Dave K

 

[Andy Resnick]

I may not speak about the whole of Europe. E.g. I assume the British system to be much more comparable to the American than that of other countries. Universities and institutes have a budget that is broken down to the faculties. So there is a certain amount of money available to them. Whether professors achieve to get additional resources by third parties and to which extend depends on them. If it hasn't changed in recent years, the main pool is the given budget. Decisions are usually made by internal boards.

Sounds very similar to the US system, actually- there's only 2 minor differences. There are no 'national' universities; there are state university systems that are funded along a very similar mechanism to what you state above- including how faculty receive research funds. Private universities are non-profit organizations that are in many respects corporate entities, with faculty research funding analogous to subcontractors.

Getting back to the main question, when someone asks "what are the practical applications of [...]", what they are usually asking is "why should I care about what you are doing?"

 

[symbolipoint]

...
Getting back to the main question, when someone asks "what are the practical applications of [...]", what they are usually asking is "why should I care about what you are doing?"

That's about it. The other question is intended as or identical to, "Why do WE need to learn this?", or "How will we use this in OUR daily lives?"

 

[Logical Dog]

Don't tell them, knowledge is power. Let them be powerless

 

[Mike Bergen]

As Dr Courtney said "There is nothing wrong with inventing new tools before their specific applications are recognized." with her rather interesting example" I wonder if the Mathematician who worked on all the math manipulations using just ones and zeros would have been a little more illustrative.

The point of the post was purely academic vs useful tool, Seems that for those young people who want to know "why do I need to know this" it might be helpful to point out that applying that "pure" science gives us engineering and Techs and Designers like myself, who Heat and Cool your home Apply Engineering.

Perhaps, if we show the relevance, the application of Math and Science we could set into motion the Love Of It

 

[dkotschessaa]

Interesting that my question was often interpreted as coming from young people or students. On the contrary, it's usually coming from adults when I tell them what I am studying.

 

[Mark Harder]

Well, but when I say "algebra" i mean group theory, rings fields, Galois theory. I don't know how people use this outside of mathematics.

Perhaps one way you can explain the utility of abstract algebra is to say that it creates methods of solving equations. Think of the "fundamental theorems of ..." They are all about solving equations. The fundamental theorem of algebra says, roughly, that every polynomial of degree n has n roots, which are the solutions of algebraic equations. Ring theory concerns, among other things, factorization of polynomials. Then there are the 'fundamental' theorems of calculus and linear algebra, which concern the existence of inverse functions, which is to say isomorphisms. The derivative and integral are inverse operations, providing you with tools for solving differential equations, for example. The fundamental theorem of linear algebra (in different versions) specifies conditions that enable you to find isomorphisms between vector spaces. The bijective linear transformations can be inverted, as can their matrices over applicable bases. There are other aspects of algebra that are of interest in themselves, but the notion that it enables one to find solutions to all sorts of equations is valid and should be comprehended, however vaguely, by the average high school student.

 

[Archie Medes]

As a mathematician, you are a toolmaker for scientists and engineers.

Any craftsman knows the value of a good toolmaker

 

[symbolipoint]

As a mathematician, you are a toolmaker for scientists and engineers.

Any craftsman knows the value of a good toolmaker

That is the biggest part of the problem. The focus on scientific and engineering work. The science and engineering people would not very likely ask what is the practical value of Mathematics they are learning - it is everybody else who asks this.

 

[Archie Medes]

That is the biggest part of the problem. The focus on scientific and engineering work. The science and engineering people would not very likely ask what is the practical value of Mathematics they are learning - it is everybody else who asks this.

That is why i put it in terms of craftsmen

People might not be engineers or scientists, but pretty much every adult uses some kind of tools in their day to day life, so they know how to appreciate a good toolmaker. And they can also appreciate that scientists and engineers do important stuff. Just need to talk to them in a language they understand. Get them thinking about how the tools they use help them in their everyday life, and then it is a small step to understanding a mathematician.

Toolmakers have always been revered. Did any of the gods have a vocation other than Hephaestus? :)

 

[dkotschessaa]

As a mathematician, you are a toolmaker for scientists and engineers.

Any craftsman knows the value of a good toolmaker

This answer is too vague for most people, unfortunately. What tools? What do you mean?

-Dave K

 

[symbolipoint]

This answer is too vague for most people, unfortunately. What tools? What do you mean?

-Dave K

What tools, does not or do not matter. He made an analogy between ANY crafts-person who uses tools/devices/equipment/materials/the skill in choosing and handling the tools; and most scientists/engineers/accountants_&_such who rely on or explore Mathematics in their work.

 

[dkotschessaa]

What tools, does not or do not matter. He made an analogy between ANY crafts-person who uses tools/devices/equipment/materials/the skill in choosing and handling the tools; and most scientists/engineers/accountants_&_such who rely on or explore Mathematics in their work.

I know what he means, and I know what you mean. My point is that if I respond to these types of inquiries (general public) with such an answer I am likely to get a blank stare.

 

[symbolipoint]

I know what he means, and I know what you mean. My point is that if I respond to these types of inquiries (general public) with such an answer I am likely to get a blank stare.

I reckon so. The technically oriented, educated, and experienced people will understand, but most others may not understand.

 

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Mathematics is not simply calculation, it is problem solving. Most people hate math because doing repetitious calculations on homework assignments is boring and monotonous and teaches very little after the first few lessons in arithmetic. Most people enjoy problem solving.

When you go grocery shopping and you choose between the "value size" box of cereal or the regular box, how do you decide? Algebra. You don't even realize you're doing it, but that's algebra. It turns out (at least in the case of Kellog's Corn Pops) that the "value size" is more expensive.

When you decide to paint your child's bedroom a new color, how much paint should you buy? Algebra. You probably didn't sit down and write out an equation, but that's algebra.

When you decide to frame a new wall in the basement for a home theater, how much lumber do you buy? Algebra.

When you hang your new swivel wall mount for your 50 inch LCD TV and have to move your speakers out of the way, how much room do you need on either side of the TV to be able to swing the TV far enough to see from the kitchen?

When you're assigning tasks to team members for a new project at the office, how do you determine who to assign which tasks to? You didn't think this one was math, but it is.

In fifteen minutes I will toss this stone. I will stand here, facing thus. I will throw it underhand with about three grip of force behind it. I want you to calculate in what manner it will move through the air so you can have your hand in the proper place to catch it when the time comes.
Catch!

Adults take math for granted. But only because they've been doing it for so long they don't think it's math when they do it.

 

[Archie Medes]

I know what he means, and I know what you mean. My point is that if I respond to these types of inquiries (general public) with such an answer I am likely to get a blank stare.

Then the problem is your ability to communicate with less educated people, because it isn't hard. You're not putting yourself in their shoes.

If they are asking you to explain how the mathematics works, that is a different story.

 

[Archie Medes]

What tools, does not or do not matter. He made an analogy between ANY crafts-person who uses tools/devices/equipment/materials/the skill in choosing and handling the tools; and most scientists/engineers/accountants_&_such who rely on or explore Mathematics in their work.

You can extend it beyond craftspeople to anyone at all. We all use tools, and we all have tools that we love, and tools we wish we had.

 

[fresh_42]

You can extend it beyond craftspeople to anyone at all. We all use tools, and we all have tools that we love, and tools we wish we had.

I think to consider mathematics merely as a tool box, is a bit like high school students think of mathematics as a mean for calculations.
As if it had anything to do with calculations.

 

[Archie Medes]

I think to consider mathematics merely as a tool box, is a bit like high school students think of mathematics as a mean for calculations.
As if it had anything to do with calculations.

I thought the question is the general public asking what the practical use is?

But I also honestly don't see it as anything other than a toolbox. Why do people use mathematics if not to solve problems?

The pursuit of it, well, that is another matter.

 

[fresh_42]

I thought the question is general public asking what the practical is?

Yes, and the fact, that it is very different from toolboxes and calculations is exactly the point, at which it becomes difficult to explain.

 

[Archie Medes]

But it isn't different at all.

Engineer has a problem, uses the relevant mathematics to solve it.

I mean, no wonder laypeople are having difficulty understanding it, if people are over complicating it with their philosophical pursuits!

 

[fresh_42]

But it isn't different at all.

Engineer has a problem, uses the relevant mathematics to solve it.

I mean, no wonder laypeople are having difficulty understanding it if people are over complicating it with their philosophical pursuits!

Yes, the engineer's problem is the exercise. The theorems are why it can solve the engineer's problem, not how. And it has absolutely nothing to do with philosophical pursuits. Your point of view is as if you said physics is good to keep your car on the road.

 

[Logical Dog]

But it isn't different at all.

Engineer has a problem, uses the relevant mathematics to solve it.

I mean, no wonder laypeople are having difficulty understanding it, if people are over complicating it with their philosophical pursuits!

Mathematics is not a toolbox in itself.
if you haven't spent hours on logic, proofs, set theory, and other foundations of mathematics, I doubt you can do much real mathematics.

 

[Archie Medes]

The theorems are why it can solve the engineer's problem, not how.

A hammer doesn't tell a carpenter what to nail

 

[Archie Medes]

Mathematics is not a toolbox in itself.
if you haven't spent hours on logic, proofs, set theory, and other foundations of mathematics, I doubt you can do much real mathematics.

Done plenty of logic, and love proofs.

Knowing how they work doesn't change them from being tools

 

[fresh_42]

A hammer doesn't tell a carpenter what to nail

I told you the metaphor is wrong. Thank you.

And logic is simple, and a tool

Simple? No. Tool? Only a very small part of it is actually in daily use.

No, I haven't done set theory, but let me guess, people apply it to solve problems, right?

I don't know. Why should they? The small part that is actually used can merely be called set theory.