How Does the Chain Rule Apply to Pushforwards in Differential Geometry?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the chain rule to pushforwards in differential geometry, particularly in the context of smooth maps between manifolds and their implications in cohomology. Participants explore the use of differential forms and cochain maps, as well as the relationships between pullbacks and pushforwards.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to prove a relationship involving homomorphisms induced by smooth maps and expresses difficulty in using differential forms for the proof.
  • Another participant suggests that the question hinges on definitions and equations, prompting the original poster to clarify their intentions.
  • A participant emphasizes the importance of notation and provides their interpretation of the chain rule in the context of differential geometry.
  • There is a discussion about the pullback of differential forms, with a participant asking how a specific n-form is pulled back to another manifold.
  • One participant queries the existence of a specific cochain map that is surjective at the chain level but not at the cohomology level, seeking examples and clarification on definitions.
  • Another participant points out the confusion between the concepts of pullbacks and pushforwards, noting that differential forms are contravariant while vector fields can push forward under certain conditions.
  • A later reply provides a detailed example of the pullback of a 2-form by a specific map, aiming to clarify the application of these concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and interpretation regarding the application of the chain rule, pullbacks, and pushforwards. There is no consensus on the specific examples or definitions being discussed, indicating that multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the need for clarity in notation and definitions, as well as the potential for confusion between different mathematical concepts. The discussion includes unresolved questions about specific examples and the relationships between different types of maps.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying differential geometry, particularly in relation to smooth maps, differential forms, and cohomology theories.

sanad
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prove that if ##g:Y→Z## and ##f:X→Y## are two smooth maps between a smooth manifolds, then a homomorphism that induced are fulfilling :## (g◦f)∗=f∗◦g∗\, :\, H∙(Z)→H∙(X)##
I must to prove this by a differential forms, but I do not how I can use them .
I began in this way:
if f∗ : H(Y)→H(X), g∗ H(Z)→H(Y) , f∗ H(Y)→H(X),g∗ : H(Z)→H(Y) (by de Rham cohomology) then f∗g∗(ω): H(Z)→H(X), f∗g∗(ω): H(Z)→H(X), now I want to show that (g∘f)∗(ω)=f∗(g∗(ω)),(g∘f)∗(ω)=f∗(g∗(ω)), (g∘f)∗(ω)=ω((g∘f))(g∘f)∗(ω)=ω((g∘f)).
but I do not succeed to finish the proof.
 
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How would you start? What have you tried so far?
And chain rule is chain rule, so your question comes down to playing around with definitions and equations. You should tell us what you want to use.
 
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First of all: please embed equations in ## equation ##. Then leave a blank between : and H. The editor otherwise interprets it as an icon. Cp. https://www.physicsforums.com/help/latexhelp/

You have to tell us more about the notations you use and where your letters live in.
In my world I have ##(gf)_*(X) = D(gf)(X)=(D(g)(f(X)) D(f)(X)= g_* f_*(X)## with a vector field ##X## and I am done. So tell us your environment.
 
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Sanad, do you know how to pullback differential forms? We have a map f: X--> Y and an n- form w defined in H_n(Y) , how w is pulled back to H_n(X)? EDIT : This is just multi-linear algebra. Start with a 1-form, i.e., a linear map from X--> Y and find its dual map.
 
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@WWGD, can i take the map:# pci:R→S1# for my qeustion"
find an example of #ψ: C•→D•# co-chain map that exists :
#ψi:Ci→Di# is an surjective map (for i>=0) but #ψ∗: (H^k)(C•)→(H^k)D•)# is not a surjective map (for k>=0)? I want to check if an identity map or # pci:R→S1# map can be an example of surjective cochain map like in a question? if not , how I can find like this map? The difintion of cochain map in a booklet is: cochain map between cochain complex #⟨D∙,δ⟩# and #⟨C∙,d⟩# is a homomorphisim chains #ϕn:Cn→Dn#
(for n>=0) such as #δn◦ϕn=ϕn+1◦dn#
"?
Remark: #ψ∗=D(pci)#
 
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sanad said:
@WWGD, can i take the map:## pc_i:\mathbb→ R \rightarrow S^1## for my qeustion"
find an example of ##ψ: C•→D•## co-chain map that exists :
##ψi:Ci→Di## is an surjective map (for i>=0) but ##ψ∗: (H^k)(C•)→(H^k)D•)## is not a surjective map (for ## k\geq 0##)? I want to check if an identity map or ## pci:\mathbb R→S^1##map can be an example of surjective cochain map like in a question? if not , how I can find like this map? The difintion of cochain map in a booklet is: cochain map between cochain complex ##⟨D∙,δ⟩## and ##⟨C∙,d⟩## is a homomorphisim chains ##ϕn:C_n→D_n##
(for n>=0) such as ##δ_n◦ϕ_n=ϕ_n+1◦d_n##
"?
Remark: ##ψ∗=D(pc_i)##
Hi Sanad, sorry for the delay. Please use double ##'s at each side to tag Tex.
Are you working with a specific choice of cohomology or you want an argument/example that is independent of the choice of cohomology? Also, I am not sure I understand what the map pci you refer to. Can you state it more explicitly?
 
This is kind of confusing because differential forms; cohomology in general, pulls back, aka is contravariant , and does not pushforward. Vector fields, under some conditions, push forward
Ok, let's do an example for pullback of a form by a map ##\alpha : \mathbb R^n \rightarrow \mathbb R^m ##. For definiteness, say ##\omega ## is a 2-form and ## m,n \geq 3 ## ( Aiming for an example that is meaningful but not trivial).

We have:
## \alpha:= (f_1(x_1,...,x_n), f_2(x_1,...,x_n),...,...f_m(x_1,x_2,...,x_n)) ## , say

##\omega = w_1dxdy +w_2dxdz+w_3dydz ##

Then ##
df_1 = f_{1x_1}(x_1,x_2,..,x_n)\frac {\partial f_1}{\partial x_1}+...+f_{1 x_n} (x_1,...,x_n) \frac{\partial f_1}{\partial x_n}...


df_k =f_{kx_1}(x_1,x_2,...,x_n)\frac {\partial f_k}{\partial x_1}+...+f_{k x_n} (x_1,...,x_n)\frac {\partial f_k}{\partial x_n} ...

.....

df_m =f_{mx_1}(x_1,x_2,...,x_n) \frac {\partial f_m}{\partial x_1}+...+f_{m x_n} (x_1,...,x_n) \frac {\partial f_m}{\partial x_n} ... ##
 

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