How does time dilation affect measurements of wheel rotation on a moving bus?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of time dilation and length contraction on measurements of wheel rotation from different reference frames, specifically comparing an observer on a moving bus to one stationary on the pavement. The scope includes theoretical considerations of relativity and its implications for measurements in a relativistic context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario involving a bus moving at speed ##v \, \text{ms}^{-1}## and the measurements of wheel rotation by both an observer on the bus and one on the pavement, noting the expected angular speed.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of length contraction, suggesting that the wheel appears round in the bus frame but is length-contracted into an ellipse in the ground frame, affecting the measurement of time intervals.
  • A participant acknowledges the importance of length contraction in understanding the scenario, indicating a realization of its relevance.
  • Further contributions discuss visual perceptions and the effects of light signal delay on observations of the wheel's rotation, introducing the idea of binocular observations and depth perception.
  • One participant presents two scenarios regarding the physical distortion of the wheel as it spins, discussing implications for the proper circumference and the relationship between RPM and speed from different frames of reference.
  • Another participant shares a link to an article related to the topic, suggesting additional resources for understanding the complexities involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the effects of relativistic phenomena on measurements, with no consensus reached on the implications of these effects or the scenarios presented. Multiple competing views remain regarding how the wheel's properties change with speed and how this affects measurements.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the physical behavior of the wheel under relativistic conditions, which are not fully resolved. The implications of these assumptions on measurements remain uncertain.

etotheipi
Here’s a simple scenario I came up with earlier, because I couldn’t make sense of a few things and so started to feel a bit sick.

There’s a bus driving along a road at say, ##v \, \text{ms}^{-1}##, and on one of the tyres someone has painted a bright yellow dot. The tyres have radius of ##1/(2\pi) \, \text{m}##, or in other words, they complete ##1## revolution in ##(1/v) \, \text{s}##. Kip, who’s attached to the bus (don’t ask me how…), uses a stopwatch to measure the time taken for each revolution of the wheel. That is, he’s just pressing the lap button every time the yellow dot reaches the top of its cycle. Charles is instead standing still on the pavement, but is also measuring the time taken for each revolution in the same way.

Because the speed of the bus relative to the pavement (and similarly the speed of the pavement relative to the bus) is just ##v \, \text{ms}^{-1}##, Kip and Charles should both calculate that the wheel - which is rolling - has the same angular speed ##\omega = v/r =2 \pi v \, \text{s}^{-1}##.

But the thing is, the events “yellow dot is at the top of it’s ##\text{i}^{\text{th}}## and ##\text{j}^{\text{th}}## cycle” respectively are of course at the same position coordinates as measured by Kip, so it’s easiest to just apply the so-called ‘time dilation formula’ which will tell you that the time interval between ##E_i## and ##E_j## calculated by Charles should be larger than that calculated by Kip.

That seems weird to me, because the effect of time dilation appears to be “invisible” here. What’s the missing piece of the puzzle?
 
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The wheel is round in the bus frame and length-contracted into an ellipse in the ground frame (relativistic wheels are weird - have a google, there are some nice videos of relativistic spoked wheels). That means that the wheel is a ##1\mathrm{m}/v## period clock in the bus frame but not in the ground frame. The ground frame would measure it to be time dilated.

You can also think about what if the paint were wet and left dots on the road as it rolls.
 
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Safe, yeah I guess I just casually forgot that length contraction is a thing. Okay, makes sense now. Thanks!
 
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etotheipi said:
Safe, yeah I guess I just casually forgot that length contraction is a thing.
The relativistic wheel is in fact the first graphic in the wiki article on length contraction:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction
 
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Looks trippy af haha
 
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A.T. said:
Looks even weirder if you also include the light signal delay, to show what you would actually see:
https://www.spacetimetravel.org/rad/rad.html
Looks even more weird, if an observer with 2 eyes sees the wheels and not one with only one eye. Unfortunately, I can't find the link to this again.

Edit: I found something on the subject:
paper said:
Gamow’s Cyclist: A New Look at Relativistic Measurements for a Binocular Observer
...
3. Measurements from Binocular Distortion

In this section, we introduce formalism with respect to binocular observations; herein, we define two types of observers:
  • Class 1 An observer with a single aperture such as a camera
  • Class 2 An observer with two apertures, capable of depth perception generated by visual parallax such as a human
Source:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1906.11642.pdf
 
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The problem gets weird and requires assumptions about how the wheel physically distorts as we spin it up.

Scenario 1 is where the proper circumference of the bus wheel remains the same, which means it will leave paint marks on the road at equal intervals despite the speed of the bus and the reduced circumference of the ellipse as viewed by the road observer. In such a case, the radius of the wheel will contract, so the bus wheel gets smaller, compressed in both directions (vertical as well as horizontal). Relative to the bus frame, the wheel will need to spin more times for a given amount of road to go by, and the paint marks on the road get closer as the road contracts.
From the road frame, RPM is linear with speed. RPM seems to increase without limit from the bus frame, being linear with proper speed, not with road speed.

Scenario 2 is where the radius of the wheel remains fixed (a thin rubber tire stretching as it slides along a non-rotating rim of fixed radius). In this scenario, the proper circumference of the tire increases with the physical stretching and the paint splotches get correspondingly further apart (road frame) as speed increases, but remain a speed independent constant separation in the bus frame. Both observers see the same original height of wheel.
In the bus frame, RPM is linear with road speed, and so is limited.
 
In case anyone cares, I found a nice AJP article on the subject.
https://oda.oslomet.no/bitstream/handle/10642/4641/Trolley%2Bparadox.pdf;jsessionid=F711419B8580E3BFA3351276B4778B25?sequence=1
 
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