How Does Torque Affect the Dynamics of an Accretion Disc?

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    Accretion Disc Torque
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of torque on the dynamics of an accretion disc, focusing on the mathematical expressions for torque and specific angular momentum. Participants explore the implications of derivatives in the context of torque calculations and the behavior of specific angular momentum over time.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a mathematical expression for the net torque acting on an accretion disc and questions the inclusion of the partial derivative in the expression.
  • Another participant suggests that taking the limit as dR approaches zero justifies the use of the derivative, emphasizing the conceptual understanding of torque as a difference in force between different radii.
  • A different participant introduces a comparison to Lorentian aether, suggesting skepticism about the underlying assumptions of the discussion.
  • Several participants discuss the definition of a derivative and its application to the torque expression, with some arguing for the use of partial derivatives over total derivatives based on the context of the variables involved.
  • One participant introduces the concept of specific angular momentum and its relationship to torque, questioning why the change in specific angular momentum is not zero in the presence of torque.
  • Another participant clarifies that the change in specific angular momentum would be zero only in the absence of torque, asserting that the divergence of specific angular momentum is not zero, which implies that the right-hand side of the equation is also not zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mathematical treatment of torque and specific angular momentum, with no consensus reached on the implications of the derivative expressions or the nature of the torque's effect on specific angular momentum.

Contextual Notes

Participants rely on specific mathematical definitions and expressions from provided resources, which may introduce assumptions or limitations not fully explored in the discussion.

Jamipat
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http://www.maths.qmul.ac.uk/~rpn/ASTM735/lecture3.pdf

The diagram on page 26 is the accretion disc.

The torque acting on the inner edge of the ring (the one that has a thickness of dR in the diagram) is

RFin = -2\piR3\nuƩ\frac{dΩ}{dR}

The torque acting on the outer edge of the ring is

RFout = [2\piR3\nuƩ\frac{dΩ}{dR}]R+dR

I would think that the net torque acting would be

T = [2\piR3\nuƩ\frac{dΩ}{dR}]R+dR - [2\piR3\nuƩ\frac{dΩ}{dR}]R

= [2\piR3\nuƩ\frac{dΩ}{dR}]dR

but according to equation (66) on page 27 of http://www.maths.qmul.ac.uk/~rpn/ASTM735/lecture3.pdf , the net torque is

\frac{∂}{∂R}[2\piR3\nuƩ\frac{dΩ}{dR}]dR

Does anyone know why \frac{∂}{∂R} is included in the expression?
 
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Assume you take the limit that dR \rightarrow 0 then that is the correct expression, just based on the definition of the derivative.
Conceptually its because the torque is the difference in force between different radii.
 
This sounds suspiciously like a variant on Lorentian aether, which has been thoroughly disproven.
 
zhermes said:
Assume you take the limit that dR \rightarrow 0 then that is the correct expression, just based on the definition of the derivative.
Conceptually its because the torque is the difference in force between different radii.

Why does dR \rightarrow 0 makes it a correct expression?
 
Because that's the definition of a derivative
f'(x) \equiv \lim_{dx \to 0} \frac{ f(x+dx) - f(x) }{ dx } = \lim_{dx \to 0} \frac{ f|_{x+dx} - f|_x }{ dx }
 
zhermes said:
Because that's the definition of a derivative
f'(x) \equiv \lim_{dx \to 0} \frac{ f(x+dx) - f(x) }{ dx } = \lim_{dx \to 0} \frac{ f|_{x+dx} - f|_x }{ dx }

If that's the definition of the derivative, shouldn't \frac{∂}{∂R} on the expression be \frac{d}{dR}
 
No, because you're only looking at the explicit R dependence---in your equation f(x) would be just the explicitly R dependent part. So you're just doing the partial derivative.
 
Tm = \frac{dj}{dt}

where Tm is the torque per unit mass, and j = R2Ω(R) which is the specific angular momentum (angular momentum per unit mass)

It may be shown that

\frac{dj}{dt} = \frac{∂j}{∂t} + (v.\nabla)j (convective derivative)

= vR\frac{∂j}{∂R} [equation (68) of page 27 http://www.maths.qmul.ac.uk/~rpn/ASTM735/lecture3.pdf]

Looking at the convective derivative, I'm guessing that \frac{∂j}{∂t} = 0 due to the derivative of j = R2Ω(R) with respect to t. If that's the case, then surely

\frac{dj}{dt} should also be 0 which makes vR\frac{∂j}{∂R} equal to 0.

I don't understand why \frac{dj}{dt} isn't 0.
 
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The change in specific angular momentum would be zero if there were no torque. If there is torque, its not zero.

The equation you gave, which (at least) looks right---says that \frac{dj}{dt} = (v \dot \Del ) j = v_R \frac{ \partial j}{\partial R} (i think you're right about the partial w.r.t. time being zero---at least if we assume a steady state). But the divergence of the specific angular momentum isn't zero---so neither is the R.H.S.
 

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