How is the universe exactly 13.7 billion years old, in absence of absolute time?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the age of the universe, specifically the commonly cited figure of 13.7 billion years, and the implications of gravitational effects on the passage of time across different regions of the universe. Participants explore the theoretical underpinnings of this age estimate, its dependence on models of cosmological expansion, and the concept of "comoving" observers in relation to time measurement.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the uneven distribution of mass in the universe suggests that time should pass differently depending on gravitational influences, questioning how the universe can have a uniform age of 13.7 billion years.
  • Others clarify that 13.7 billion years is not an exact figure but rather a best fit to a model that assumes homogeneity at certain scales.
  • One participant notes that the age estimate relies on the assumption of a relatively constant expansion rate since the Big Bang, which may not hold true.
  • It is mentioned that the 13.7 billion year figure applies to "comoving" observers, who perceive the universe as homogeneous and isotropic, while other observers may experience different amounts of proper time due to non-homogeneous matter distributions.
  • Some participants emphasize that the current best estimate of the universe's age is actually 13.75 billion years, highlighting the evolving nature of such measurements.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of comoving observers and the interpretation of distance in cosmology, with some participants challenging the conventional understanding of "proper distance" versus "coordinate distance."
  • One participant points out that while the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation is at its minimum energy in the comoving frame, the effects of this radiation on the motion of observable objects are negligible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the implications of gravitational effects on time measurement and the interpretation of the universe's age. There is no consensus on the validity of the assumptions underlying the age estimate or the implications of different observer frames.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the assumptions made about homogeneity and isotropy in cosmological models, as well as the dependence of time measurement on the observer's frame of reference. The nuances of proper distance and coordinate distance in cosmology remain unresolved.

mitrasoumya
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Distribution of mass across the universe is not even. Therefore, passage of time should vary according to gravity. Which means at places time will pass at a higher pace or a lower pace than in respect of other places. Then, how is the entire Universe exactly 13.7 billion years old?
 
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First, 13.7 isn't an exact number. It is a best fit to a model which is only valid at scales where the universe is homogenous.

Second, the same thing can be said of a human whose head spends, on average, more time at a higher gravitational potential than their feet.
 
The universe isn't exactly 13.7 billions as said above , we get that under the crude assumption that the expansion has been fairly constant since the BB , which it has not ( if I recall correctly this value is calculated by simply finding out the inverse of the Hubble's time , whose value varies).
 
mitrasoumya said:
Distribution of mass across the universe is not even. Therefore, passage of time should vary according to gravity. Which means at places time will pass at a higher pace or a lower pace than in respect of other places. Then, how is the entire Universe exactly 13.7 billion years old?

The 13.7 billion year number (which, as DaleSpam points out, is only approximate anyway) does not apply to "the entire Universe". It is an estimate of the proper time experienced by "comoving" observers (observers who see the universe as homogeneous and isotropic at all times) since the Big Bang. Observers who see non-homogeneous or non-isotropic matter distributions will have experienced a different amount of proper time since the Big Bang; in other words, the passage of time *does* "vary according to gravity".
 
Although 13.7 Gy is almost universally quoted, the current best value is 13.75. See Wikipedia if you don't believe me! :-p
 
Reiterating PeterDonis' point, 13.7 billion years is the time since the singularity in the rest frame of a special class of "comoving" observers. Comoving observers use coordinates which "factor out" cosmological expansion so that galaxies participating in the expansion are always at the same distance. Other observers measure different times. However, since the CMB is at its minimum energy in the comoving frame, a body moving with respect to a comoving observer will tend to come to rest, in a similar way to how a body moving through the ocean will tend to come to rest with respect to the water.
 
Adam Lewis said:
Comoving observers use coordinates which "factor out" cosmological expansion so that galaxies participating in the expansion are always at the same distance.

This is not correct, at least not with the usual interpretation of the term "distance" as "proper distance". The proper distance between comoving observers does increase as the universe expands. The comoving observers stay at constant *spatial coordinates* in the standard FRW chart, meaning that they stay at the same "coordinate distance" from each other, but that's not the same as staying at the same proper distance from each other. The proper distance involves the metric, not just the coordinates, and the metric changes with time.

Adam Lewis said:
However, since the CMB is at its minimum energy in the comoving frame, a body moving with respect to a comoving observer will tend to come to rest, in a similar way to how a body moving through the ocean will tend to come to rest with respect to the water.

This is true, but it's a *very* small effect. The radiation pressure of the CMBR has no observable effect on the motion of any of the objects we can see, and certainly most of those are not on "comoving" worldlines.
 

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