How long do bones take to decompose to dust?

[silver007]

TL;DR

If bones were laid bare in a room at typical room temperatures for say southern Italy, how long would human bones take to decay naturally?

If bones were laid bare in a room at typical room temperatures for say southern Italy, how long would human bones take to decay naturally?

So, not touched, in open air inside a room, and typical weather conditions. Let's assume the doors are closed, but there is no insulation.

 

[phinds]

What research have you done on this so far? What have you found?

 

[silver007]

Thanks. It's a bit of a mess when trying to find something specific and even then there seem to be varying opinions. I was hoping someone knew the best source of information. Many of the research papers I looked at were very specific and not something similar to what I am asking. Thanks

 

[silver007]

This is the type of research and it reports sort of what I stated:

Abstract​

In the medicolegal context, forensic anthropologists assist investigators by gathering information from skeletal remains. While humans decompose in both indoor and outdoor environments, little research has been performed on the differences in the decomposition rate and process between subjects in an indoor environment and subjects in an outdoor environment.

https://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_gradthes/2292/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

As it turns out, bones decay at varying rates, and some do not decay at all!

Bones last longer in dry and arid conditions since microbes cannot survive at high temperatures without water. This is why the iconic image of a skeleton in a desert is morbidly accurate.

https://www.scienceabc.com/humans/s...s-decay-decompose.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

[phinds]

Pretty good start but, yeah, it doesn't address your issue of "how long".

65+ million year old dinosaur bones have been found many many times all over the world, as you probably know, but of course those are in the ground, not in the air.

 

[jim mcnamara]

It is not a "mess" at all. Forensic determinations are made extensively and depend heavily on environment of the remains. Examples : moisture, pH, local flora and fauna (bugs, rodents, fungi, oxygen levels in the medium, and type of medium ( like stagnant pond versus rushing water), sand blown, buried in wet soil ).

For example:
I was a member of a search and rescue team. Got to retrieve what were called "partials" in order to learn protocols. Very time consuming. Coyote leftovers were usually in this class of remains.

PS: please do not link results of AI bots...

https://www.aftermath.com/content/human-decomposition/

 

[silver007]

It is not a "mess" at all. Forensic determinations are made extensively and depend heavily on environment of the remains. Examples : moisture, pH, local flora and fauna (bugs, rodents, fungi, oxygen levels in the medium, and type of medium ( like stagnant pond versus rushing water), sand blown, buried in wet soil ).

For example:
I was a member of a search and rescue team. Got to retrieve what were called "partials" in order to learn protocols. Very time consuming. Coyote leftovers were usually in this class of remains.

PS: please do not link results of AI bots...

https://www.aftermath.com/content/human-decomposition/

Thanks, but I cant see in the link you provided any information related to bones decomposing and turning to dust in a normal room environment. The only reference to bones is:

Stage Four: Skeletonization​

Because the skeleton has a decomposition rate based on the loss of organic (collagen) and inorganic components, there is no set timeframe when skeletonization occurs.

 

[jim mcnamara]

No set timeframe == answer

 

[silver007]

No set time frame

No set timeframe == answer

That's interesting. I'm not sure that the page and one statement they make confirms it as conclusive. I wonder if there are any other sources that people know of. Thanks for your input.

 

[silver007]

What research have you done on this so far? What have you found?

One of the problems I'm sure most people encounter when doing research is most of the papers are behind a paywall, however, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that, which is always a headscratcher when it comes to medical infomation that could save lives. Any information that could save lives behind a paywall seems immoral to me.

 

[silver007]

Thanks, however, I'm asking if anyone knows of any research specifically related to:

If bones were laid bare in a room at typical room temperatures for say southern Italy, how long would human bones take to decay naturally?

So, not touched, in open air inside a room, and typical weather conditions. Let's assume the doors are closed, but there is no insulation.

+ no soil, and size - 80kg skeleton? If that helps.

I have seen research papers on skeletalisation in arid conditions like a desert, and of course in soil, but they are not what I am looking for and with paywalls it makes it harder to find a good answer.

 

[Tom.G]

"Decay rates of human remains in an arid environment"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2738563/
(also has links to other articles)

"Bone degradation at five Arctic archaeological sites: Quantifying the importance of burial environment and bone characteristics"
An open-access article:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030544032030217X

Above found with:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&=bone+disintegration+time+in+free+air

Cheers,
Tom

 

[silver007]

I had taken time to answer but the answer has been deleted.

Your answer doesn't explain or help as I have already explained.

How long would bones kept in a typical room in a European country like Italy last before they decay and decompose?

There are millions if not billions of bones in catacombs all around Europe and the world. How do they last so long out in the open if all the research states bones decay to dust within 10 years?

 

[berkeman]

I had taken time to answer but the answer has been deleted.

Are you talking about your reply to Tom? That was deleted by you last Thursday. I don't see any other posts of yours in this thread that have been deleted.

 

[renormalize]

Your answer doesn't explain or help as I have already explained.
How long would bones kept in a typical room in a European country like Italy last before they decay and decompose?
There are millions if not billions of bones in catacombs all around Europe and the world. How do they last so long out in the open if all the research states bones decay to dust within 10 years?

I propose that you consult the technical literature to get a definitive answer to your question. Let me suggest this paper (along with the 93 references it cites):
Variability of bone preservation in a confined environment: The case of the catacomb of Sts Peter and Marcellinus (Rome, Italy)
(https://doi.org/10.1016/j.palaeo.2014.07.021)
From the introduction:
"Checking whether the original isotope compositions of biomineral fractions are not altered by diagenesis is an essential prerequisite to interpret isotope analyses (Bocherens et al., 2005, Bocherens et al., 2008, Brady et al., 2008, Shin and Hedges, 2012). Most of the studies investigating the diagenetic trajectory of fossil bones focus on open-air sites. To our knowledge, very little work has been published in confined environments. The advantage of such an approach was demonstrated by Bocherens et al. (2008) in Chauvet cave. In this Palaeolithic site, the authors showed that the preservation of bear bones exposed on the floor of the cave varied widely probably due to spatial variation in local conditions. The Chauvet cave results cannot be directly translated to man-made cavities such as catacombs because the age and taphonomic contexts are quite different. Like in caves, the thermal history of catacombs is more stable than in open-air sites which should a priori favor their preservation. On the other hand, the accumulation of corpses over a short period of time in catacombs could have an effect on the soil pH and therefore favor the destruction of human bones. The aim of this study is to describe the diagenetic trajectory of the human bone samples from the SSPM catacomb in order to assess their preservation and compare it with the preservation observed in contemporary open-air sites from the region of Rome. ... Our results show that both the mineral and the organic fractions are affected by diagenesis to various degrees, and that bones originating from the small burial chambers are the most diagenetically altered. While some of the bones were strongly recrystallized, the stable isotope values of bone carbonate remained reliable. Comparison with contemporary sites from the Latium showed that conditions prevailing in catacombs seem overall to favor, rather than disadvantage bone preservation." (Emphasis added.)

 

[silver007]

Thanks @renormalize, but as I previously stated, "One of the problems I'm sure most people encounter when doing research is most of the papers are behind a paywall". and although you kindly offer an excerpt (maybe you have paid access to that paper that I can't access), it doesn't actually say anything that I wouldn't have concluded through common sense and that is that they decay at different rates. And that paper doens't even cite where they took the sample from, because that is a secret.


How long would bones kept in a typical room in a European country like Italy last before they decay and decompose?

There are millions if not billions of bones in catacombs all around Europe and the world. How do they last so long out in the open if all the research states bones decay to dust within 10 years?

PS: PLEASE CHECK THE RESEARCH PAPER YOU REFER TO INS'T BEHIND A PAYWALL, OR THAT YOUR RESPONSE ISN'T A LINK TO WIKIPEDIA. thanks

 

[renormalize]

Thanks @renormalize, but as I previously stated, "One of the problems I'm sure most people encounter when doing research is most of the papers are behind a paywall". and although you kindly offer an excerpt (maybe you have paid access to that paper that I can't access), it doesn't actually say anything that I wouldn't have concluded through common sense and that is that they decay at different rates. And that paper doens't even cite where they took the sample from, because that is a secret.

PS: PLEASE CHECK THE RESEARCH PAPER YOU REFER TO INS'T BEHIND A PAYWALL, OR THAT YOUR RESPONSE ISN'T A LINK TO WIKIPEDIA. thanks

The cited paper is available for purchase as a PDF for $28US. Or you can visit the appropriate scholarly research library to view that and similar articles for free. Also, many local public libraries have borrowing arrangements with colleges and universities for obtaining academic articles, often at no cost.
Please don't deny yourself the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment that comes from arriving at the answer to your own question through performing your own research.

 

[silver007]

You are pointing out the obvious again. I'm here to find the answer and I can't find it behind a paywall or some select organisation like a university [Insults and conspiracy theory deleted by the Mentors]

 

[pinball1970]

You are pointing out the obvious again. I'm here to find the answer and I can't find it behind a paywall or some select organisation like a university [Insults and conspiracy theory deleted by the Mentors]

Probably best you dial down the snarky?
You ask a question people will try to help as they have on here.

Of course published articles can have fees, they are not free to produce so are not freely distributed, you have to shop around.

You can get a lot from abstracts and they are free. You will find some open access papers, if you look.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2738563/

I have a book on osteology so I will dig it out on Friday, see if there are any pointers.

 

[silver007]

Thanks for looking for that book @pinball1970. Abstracts almost never provide enough information and that is by design. I used to be able to get access to papers, but the censorship in my country is that of the USSR and so I am very limited. I think it is presumptious of people to suggest I haven't looked, provide their opinion about me as to why that might be, and then provide information that doens't help. It's fact. Not opinion.

People on here have complained to me about not being specific in my question.I think this time I have been:

How long would bones kept in a typical room in a European country like Italy last before they decay and decompose?

There are millions if not billions of bones in catacombs all around Europe and the world. How do they last so long out in the open if all the research states bones decay to dust within 10 years?

Yet, the replies do not answer my question in any way.

PS: you wait, someone will reply telling me to do some research, or someone will post something that doesn't answer the question. It's like a glitch in the matrix.

 

[pinball1970]

Thanks for looking for that book @pinball1970. Abstracts almost never provide enough information and that is by design. I used to be able to get access to papers, but the censorship in my country is that of the USSR and so I am very limited. I think it is presumptious of people to suggest I haven't looked, provide their opinion about me as to why that might be, and then provide information that doens't help. It's fact. Not opinion.

People on here have complained to me about not being specific in my question.I think this time I have been:

How long would bones kept in a typical room in a European country like Italy last before they decay and decompose?

There are millions if not billions of bones in catacombs all around Europe and the world. How do they last so long out in the open if all the research states bones decay to dust within 10 years?

Yet, the replies do not answer my question in any way.

The abstract is to tell the reader what the study set out to do and did, if the study was in the Atacama desert or used JWST it will mention that.
Like I said a lot of resources go into those papers.
I have no idea where you have looked besides those likes you provided one of which is GTP-Chat.

Have you looked at PLOS? Or https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=bone+decomposition+time&oq=bone+decomposition+

 

[renormalize]

How do they last so long out in the open if all the research states bones decay to dust within 10 years?

OK, I won't suggest you do your own tedious research. But I will ask: please cite one (or preferably more) scholarly references that show that "bones decay to dust within 10 years"?

 

[jedishrfu]

We would like to answer your question definitively, but we can't. The varying environmental factors that determine where bones may be found make a single definitive answer moot.

There are many body farms in the US where students research such things. I suggest contacting a professor in that department and asking him your questions.

I know that Texas State University runs a body farm doing this research.

https://www.txst.edu/anthropology/facts/labs/farf.html

Alternatively, you could consider taking courses related to this because I think it's a very complex and nuanced science that cannot be answered here.

Another possible source of information would be a state or county medical examiner.

Having said all that, it's time to close this thread and thank everyone who participated here.

Jedi