News How Much Oil Equivalent Does a Solar Hot Water System Collect?

[OmCheeto]

methane is also in huge ice deposits on the ocean floor, if only we can get at it. hydrogen's a bit impractical yet as a transportation fuel. H is too slippery and incompressible. it doesn't like to be held. but methane works fine in an ICE.

Ugh. Methane, methane, methane.
Actually, I was arguing the merits of methane over hydrogen a couple of months ago.
I must be turning into a Libertarian...

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/jfk-space.htm
- September 12, 1962
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency.

[ctrl][h]find:go to the moon, replace:become energy independent[return]

While I agree that harvesting methane is a cheap and easy fix to our current dilemma, we should continue on the difficult and expensive task of fixing our dependence on "burning things up" to get from here to there.

 

[OmCheeto]

ye olde baite and switche! yeah, I'm sure there was some lobbying going on behind the scenes from the natural gas suppliers. and no matter how friendly the technology, it will eventually be demonized because that makes it easier to tax.

Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

 

[mheslep]

Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

A sales tax / VAT certainly does it indirectly.

 

[mgb_phys]

"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

With the UK's crazy VAT rules they could probably tax the proportion of food you used in walking to work as fuel.

 

[Proton Soup]

Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

IIRC, that was actually a problem in California. pretty much all energy production is taxed. no reason for hydro or wind or solar to be exempt. except, of course, initially so people will actually build it.

oh, and i guess indirectly the government does tax walking, since it taxes property.

 

[drankin]

Ugh. Methane, methane, methane.
Actually, I was arguing the merits of methane over hydrogen a couple of months ago.
I must be turning into a Libertarian...



[ctrl][h]find:go to the moon, replace:become energy independent[return]

While I agree that harvesting methane is a cheap and easy fix to our current dilemma, we should continue on the difficult and expensive task of fixing our dependence on "burning things up" to get from here to there.

But, burning hydrogen/methane is about as clean as you can get. I see no other way to get the energy, aside from petroleum, you need to move things. Electric energy cannot compete with burning fuels in the shipping industry. Whether semi-trucks, trains (electric motors powered by diesel generators), or aircraft, you can't do that with electricity alone. Stuff has to burn to get from here to there.

 

[marlon]

So, now that Obama is president. Will the electric car appear on the market sooner ?marlon

 

[mheslep]

So, now that Obama is president. Will the electric car appear on the market sooner ?


marlon

Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.

 

[marlon]

Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.

and you know this how ?

 

[mgb_phys]

and you know this how ?

Progress in battery performance, announcements by car makers and the time taken for a significant number of people to change their car - especially in the current climate.
Of course the president could do something spectacular to raise the price of oil by a $100 - like invade Canada?

 

[OmCheeto]

But, burning hydrogen/methane is about as clean as you can get. I see no other way to get the energy, aside from petroleum, you need to move things. Electric energy cannot compete with burning fuels in the shipping industry. Whether semi-trucks, trains (electric motors powered by diesel generators), or aircraft, you can't do that with electricity alone. Stuff has to burn to get from here to there.

You are quite correct. Methane is a wonderfully clean fuel, albeit still a "harvestable fuel", but still cleaner than the longer chains of hydrocarbon fuels. But I like Ivan's algae solution. Have you ever studied the reproductive habits of algae? They double their population every 2 or 3 hours as I recall.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/11/08/drivers_get_charged_up_about_plugging_in_cars/"

Bina Venkataraman
The Boston Globe
November 8, 2008

Since July, when a Watertown company, A123 Systems, began selling the $10,000 batteries online, at least 200 hybrid owners have had them installed. The six garages in the country licensed to install them have filled their calendars through December.

"If I had 500 of them right now, I probably could have them sold within the next two months," said Don Fahnestock, owner of The Green Car Company in Bellevue, Wash.
...
Still, the drivers are unlikely to ever recoup the steep cost of the battery in fuel savings, unless gas far exceeds the recent high of more than $4 a gallon or the car is driven more than 250,000 miles.
...
But for these drivers, saving money is not the point.

Kevin Curran, an electrical engineer from Hollis, N.H., whose son recently returned from his second tour of duty in Iraq as a US Marine, bought the extra battery so he could use less oil. "We have to reduce our oil imports," he said. "This is my small contribution to reduce demand."
...
Some call these drivers early adopters. Their neighbors and friends call them tech-geeks, eco-freaks, "Pious" drivers, and, more succinctly, nuts - those who are willing to spend what for some people would be several months' salary to tinker in energy efficiency. But the plug-in crowd defies simple labels. James Woolsey, former director of the CIA, owns a plug-in retrofitted Prius (adorned with a "Bin Laden Hates This Car" bumper sticker). Plug-in cars are one of the cheapest ways to clean up the country's transportation sector...
...
But John Heywood, an MIT professor who specializes in alternative vehicles, said the plug-in Prius drivers are taking a risk by using the A123 Systems technology. "They might screw up their cars," he said. "But there are always people who want to take a stand and want to improve things."

One thing that continues to bug me is the fact that a lot of people still look at the battery packs as an investment that needs a reasonable "payback time".

What's the return on investment by buying any car? Why can't the batteries be looked at as an integral part of the car? No one goes to the dealership and tells the salesman to remove the wheels and tires because they don't see the value added by such expensive options.

And Heywoods comment is so do-gooder; "You're going to put your eye out with that battery!"

 

[Office_Shredder]

What's the return on investment by buying any car? Why can't the batteries be looked at as an integral part of the car? No one goes to the dealership and tells the salesman to remove the wheels and tires because they don't see the value added by such expensive options.

I can't drive without wheels. I can drive without a battery. I don't see how you can get that confused to be honest

 

[OmCheeto]

I can't drive without wheels. I can drive without a battery. I don't see how you can get that confused to be honest

When I'm driving back and forth to work in my solar powered plug in hybrid, and you're waiting an hour in line during the next gas crisis, we'll see who's confused.

 

[drankin]

When I'm driving back and forth to work in my solar powered plug in hybrid, and you're waiting an hour in line during the next gas crisis, we'll see who's confused.

Meanwhile, please stay to the right so we can get around you easier going up those hills.

 

[russ_watters]

One thing that continues to bug me is the fact that a lot of people still look at the battery packs as an investment that needs a reasonable "payback time".

Why can't the batteries be looked at as an integral part of the car?

Because batteries are properly considered a consumable. They don't last as long as the rest of the car and if you keep the car for a certain amount of time or certain number of miles, you have to replace them. Just like tires.

No one goes to the dealership and tells the salesman to remove the wheels and tires because they don't see the value added by such expensive options.

Yah, actually some people do. More often, though, they just ask for a credit if you sell the car with tires that need to be replaced. I'm a little concerned that when I sell my car, someone might request that I swap out my 17" wheels for 15" or ask for money off the car if the tires are almost ready to be replaced. By the same token, you can be sure that if I put $800 worth of tires on the car right before I sell it, I'm jacking up the price of the car.

Meanwhile, please stay to the right so we can get around you easier going up those hills.

I'm going to make a fortune building bars and bail bond stores next to "gas" stations. People will drink for 6 hours while their cars recharge, get arrested for DUI, then I'll post their bail!

 

[OmCheeto]

Meanwhile, please stay to the right so we can get around you easier going up those hills.

And that young drankin, is precisely why I've yet to invest a penny in an electrical automobile.

I contacted the local Zap car dealer about a year ago and told them of my driving requirements. They quite honestly told me to wait for the new and improved version coming out next year.

 

[mheslep]

Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.

and you know this how ?

Progress in battery performance, announcements by car makers and the time taken for a significant number of people to change their car - especially in the current climate.
Of course the president could do something spectacular to raise the price of oil by a $100 - like invade Canada?

Exactly. Also add: inability to make long distance trips requiring a recharge in route and the recharging stations to go with them. Shai Agassi's 'Better Place' company proposes to solve this with on the fly battery replacement, but I don't see it working large scale, IMO. The potential of the pure EV is so good that its bound to happen, its just going to take awhile. That is maybe 10^5 EV's/year could start popping up, but nothing of the scale that will quickly supplant the 10^9 ICE vehicles in the next eight years. Meanwhile substantial R&D is justified, IMO.

http://www.betterplace.com/our-bold-plan/how-it-works/

 

[russ_watters]

I contacted the local Zap car dealer about a year ago and told them of my driving requirements. They quite honestly told me to wait for the new and improved version coming out next year.

I wonder what they'll say next year?

Btw, I just noticed your signature. My company recently did a solar water heater installation and for fun, we calculated how many gallons of oil the collecter saved per square foot per year. Wanna guess what we came up with?

 

[SticksandStones]

I wonder what they'll say next year?

Btw, I just noticed your signature. My company recently did a solar water heater installation and for fun, we calculated how many gallons of oil the collecter saved per square foot per year. Wanna guess what we came up with?

I'm going to guess some negative number if you took into account the oil needed to produce and ship the solar water heater.

 

[mgb_phys]

Exactly. Also add: inability to make long distance trips requiring a recharge in route and the recharging stations to go with them.

Plug in hybrids are going to be for around town use. Where the majority of daily trips are less than 10miles and it doesn't take an 8000lb SUV to deliver a 5year old to school.
The first big seller could be electric scooters (ie mopeds) since they are limited to 30mph/50kmh anyway, are used for short journeys and are cheap when a lot of people are going to start wondering if they need to be paying the $30K loan on that 2nd car.

 

[OmCheeto]

I wonder what they'll say next year?

Btw, I just noticed your signature. My company recently did a solar water heater installation and for fun, we calculated how many gallons of oil the collecter saved per square foot per year. Wanna guess what we came up with?

It's going to take 15 years to recoup the cost?

 

[mheslep]

I wonder what they'll say next year?

Btw, I just noticed your signature. My company recently did a solar water heater installation and for fun, we calculated how many gallons of oil the collecter saved per square foot per year. Wanna guess what we came up with?

Spoiler

91 gals/square foot/year in Phoenix, ~half that in Pa.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm going to guess some negative number if you took into account the oil needed to produce and ship the solar water heater.

The oil needed to produce and ship it is built into the price of the water heater, so it factors into a payback calculation...but that isn't what I asked. All I'm asking is the oil equivalent of the sunlight energy collected.

mheslep - you're waaay high. FYi, the array we made doesn't track. You're also not considering the efficiency of the array itself or, more importantly: the hot water demand of the building (the array isn't heating water if it is already hot). It's a school, which doesn't have much demand, but the array is sized appropriately for the limited demand.

 

[mheslep]

The oil needed to produce and ship it is built into the price of the water heater, so it factors into a payback calculation...but that isn't what I asked. All I'm asking is the oil equivalent of the sunlight energy collected.

mheslep - you're waaay high. FYi, the array we made doesn't track. You're also not considering the efficiency of the array itself

I assumed: flat plate tilted at latitude, 7kWh/M^2/day Phoenix. 50% effiency for a solar water heater, and about the same for an oil based water heater (without really checking), i.e. a wash.

or, more importantly: the hot water demand of the building (the array isn't heating water if it is already hot). It's a school, which doesn't have much demand, but the array is sized appropriately for the limited demand.

Yes I didn't consider demand at all.

 

[OmCheeto]

The oil needed to produce and ship it is built into the price of the water heater, so it factors into a payback calculation...but that isn't what I asked. All I'm asking is the oil equivalent of the sunlight energy collected.

mheslep - you're waaay high. FYi, the array we made doesn't track. You're also not considering the efficiency of the array itself or, more importantly: the hot water demand of the building (the array isn't heating water if it is already hot). It's a school, which doesn't have much demand, but the array is sized appropriately for the limited demand.

I only came up with 2.84 gallons per year per square foot.(fixed flat plate at -15 degrees)
I wasn't sure if you were referring to olive, cod liver, or fuel oil, so I used the energy content of kerosene: 134,000 Btu/gal.

But that's pretty cool. I can build one of those collectors for about $3/ft^2.
At $4.00 per gallon of kerosene, my collector should pay for itself in 3 months.

But what on Earth does this all have to do with who killed the electric car?