The discussion revolves around the efficiency and viability of electric vehicles (EVs), particularly in relation to their technology, market dynamics, and historical context. Participants explore various aspects of electric car performance, including battery life, weight, and the economic factors influencing their production and sales.
Participants do not reach a consensus on the efficiency and practicality of electric vehicles. Multiple competing views remain regarding the effectiveness of different technologies and the economic implications of EV production.
Discussions include varying definitions of efficiency, assumptions about vehicle usage, and the impact of market conditions on electric vehicle viability. Some statements rely on anecdotal evidence, which may not represent broader trends.
You probably just need to make sure you have enough fresh air coming into avoid that.drankin said:I believe ambient temperature needs to be a factor in your equation. Driving through Duluth, MN or Fairbanks, AK in January. We needed to run our air conditioning while heating the interior in order to minimize frost forming on the INSIDE of the windshield.
Neither do I for the near future, but PHEV's will likely have a big impact quite soon.drankin said:...I'm not against EVs, I just don't think it's THE solution...
The windscreen cannot be below the outside dew point in winter and the air you bring in from outside is never wetter than the air inside when the AC is off.mgb_phys said:If it's wet enough or cold enough that the windscreen is below the dew point it's better to use the AC to dry the recirculated air inside the car rather than try and warm the screen or pull in wetter air from outside.
russ_watters said:The windscreen cannot be below the outside dew point in winter and the air you bring in from outside is never wetter than the air inside when the AC is off.
In addition, due to the particulars of the thermodynamic cycle, the air conditioning cannot cool the air down below about 45 F, so if the outside air is below 45 F, it is guaranteed to be drier than the air the AC is making.
drankin said:Cute idea but it won't catch on. I think transportation is always going to require that we burn something to get the power we are accustomed to.
Re: The Pellet Pickup
May 31, 2008, Larry Caldwell
... The Stanley ran on kerosene, but it would be simple to build
a wood pellet steam generator that would run on 100% biofuel. Rather
than using the piston steam engine of the Stanley, you could use a steam
turbine, and use it to directly drive a generator. You could eliminate
gears entirely and use solid state rectification of high frequency AC to
charge the batteries. ...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html
BY JAY LENO
Published in the May 2003 issue, Popular Mechanics
... Doble addressed the Stanley's problems. With my 1925 Doble, I get in, turn the key, and in under a minute I can pull away. And it pulls away silently, whoosh, just like that. It's an amazing feeling. With 1000 ft.-lb. of torque, it's effortless. ...
Castle Rock boat builder eyes electric-engine speed record
Thursday, October 9, 2008 11:54 PM PDT
By Brenda Blevins McCorkle
It took Bontoft roughly 18 months to build the boat, which cost about $30,000. The batteries worth $14,000 were donated by a Korean company, Enerland Division of A123 Systems.
During the last test, it topped at 101 mph.
There is research into totally bio-fueled boats, they can run on low grade organic waste products such as fast food indefinately and cruise at 6knots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriremeI'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with mileage figures for boats, but those are incredible numbers for a boat that size and weight.
My 14 foot, 400 lb, 40hp gas powered boat gets 6 mpg! Hence my research into ev-gas hybrids.
mgb_phys said:That is one of the reasons for using hydrogen. It is a way of shipping large amounts of energy long distance without running pipelines. One porposal is that countries with geothermal or hydroelectric power could use it to make hydrogen and ship that to the car users in LA.
This is basically what happens with Aluminium at the moment - it takes so much power so run an Al smelter that you put them where there is cheap hydro power and then ship the ore to them and the finished metal to where it's needed.
You could use nuclear power to make hydrogen, but since you can put a nuclear power station where ever you want it would make more sense to build it near the city and just use it drive plugin vehicles or public transit.
ps.
It's not the oxygen/CO2 ratio that is important for greenhouse effect- it's the pure amount of CO2, anyway the amount of O2 from making hydrogen would be negligible.
You would probably make hydrogen by splitting methane rather than water anyway.
drankin said:This got me thinking. I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I believe hydrogen would be the best fuel. Now, we understand it creates a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from water. If we were able to get over our obstacles concerning nuclear power plants and create a few that were dedicated to mining (for lack of a better term) hydrogen. They would be nuclear hydrogen refineries. Create a hydrogen infrastructure in this country. Then we would be able to drive vehicles as large as we like and we would become energy independent cleaning up the environment. The refineries would create or "dump" a large quantity of oxygen into the atmosphere and offset the carbon dioxide/oxygen ratio problem many believe we have. In the interim we can switch over to natural gas.
I haven't researched this idea at all, just brainstorming really, but it is one way that seems very doable and would solve a lot of our concerns (other than the nuclear power plant hurdle).
Ammonia Borane Pellets May Power Hydrogen Cars Of The Future
August 22nd 2007 07:50 AM
The Department of Energy’s Chemical Hydrogen Storage Center of Excellence is investigating a hydrogen storage medium that holds promise in meeting long-term targets for transportation use. As part of the center, PNNL scientists are using solid ammonia borane, or AB, compressed into small pellets to serve as a hydrogen storage material. Each milliliter of AB weighs about three-quarters of a gram and harbors up to 1.8 liters of hydrogen. Researchers expect that a fuel system using small AB pellets will occupy less space and be lighter in weight than systems using pressurized hydrogen gas, thus enabling fuel cell vehicles to have room, range and performance comparable to today’s automobiles.
In principle you are left with just carbon (as coke)drankin said:Why methane (I'm no chemist). Is it easier to hydrogen from methane? What is left when you do that?
mgb_phys said:In principle you are left with just carbon (as coke)
CH4 -> C + 2H2
In practice it's more efficent industrially to use steam.
CH4 + H20 -> CO + 3H2
So you have carbon monoxide which you can burn off to make CO2, it's the same amount of CO2 you would get if you burned the methane directly. The heat from this would power the process.
Eventually when you have industrial scale fuel cells and a source of electricty it may be more efficent to split water directly.
Methane is natural gas - there are big gas fields in lots of countries, Russia is probably the largest producer. It's basically like drilling for oil except gas is ussually at a shallower depth, needs a lot less processing before you sell it and is easier to transport.drankin said:I like it. How difficult is it to obtain large amounts of methane?
LPG car conversions are very popular in europe, the conversion is cheap and the engine can still run on gasoline.Proton Soup said:but methane works fine in an ICE.
mgb_phys said:LPG car conversions are very popular in europe, the conversion is cheap and the engine can still run on gasoline.
The UK government was offering a green grant to pay for the conversion and LPG was a 1/3 the price of gasoline because of lower tax. Then oddly when enough people had converted new research showed how bad for the environment it was and the grants stopped and the tax on LPG went up.
By a strange coincidence the same thing happened with diesel 10years early.
Proton Soup said:methane is also in huge ice deposits on the ocean floor, if only we can get at it. hydrogen's a bit impractical yet as a transportation fuel. H is too slippery and incompressible. it doesn't like to be held. but methane works fine in an ICE.
John F. Kennedy said:http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/jfk-space.htm
- September 12, 1962
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency.
Proton Soup said:ye olde baite and switche! yeah, I'm sure there was some lobbying going on behind the scenes from the natural gas suppliers. and no matter how friendly the technology, it will eventually be demonized because that makes it easier to tax.
A sales tax / VAT certainly does it indirectly.OmCheeto said:Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."
With the UK's crazy VAT rules they could probably tax the proportion of food you used in walking to work as fuel."If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."
OmCheeto said:Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."
OmCheeto said:Ugh. Methane, methane, methane.
Actually, I was arguing the merits of methane over hydrogen a couple of months ago.
I must be turning into a Libertarian...
[ctrl][h]find:go to the moon, replace:become energy independent[return]
While I agree that harvesting methane is a cheap and easy fix to our current dilemma, we should continue on the difficult and expensive task of fixing our dependence on "burning things up" to get from here to there.
Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.marlon said:So, now that Obama is president. Will the electric car appear on the market sooner ?
marlon
mheslep said:Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.
Progress in battery performance, announcements by car makers and the time taken for a significant number of people to change their car - especially in the current climate.marlon said:and you know this how ?