How often does helping someone out ever help?

[Lacy33]

My sister has to sell her house this year - partly because of all the money that she spent supporting our half-sister and her four kids. My sister took her in after the half-sister left her husband. The half-sister was studying but, whenever she had any money, there was always an excuse why she couldn't help with the bills.

Of course, I also blame my sister for providing them with cable, a cell phone, restaurant trips, etc. when she had a house that she could barely afford. It makes me sad to see this happen but, I know that if I helped, nothing would change. Both of them are very religious. You can guess which one quotes passages about helping others.

If someone is using religious verses, then I remember one about.. Not being allowed to be righteous on the backs of another. (paraphrase)

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

If I am a "loser" and have to live under another person's care and support, simply because I cannot keep a job(that I need to put myself through college so that I can look for a better job) due to the fact that I come home everyday wanting to K-I-L-L the people I work with because of how stupid, ignorant, lazy, dramatic, etc. they are...then what advice do you have for me? Should I continue hopping from one job to another and hence keep living in someone elses house? Should I put up with those kind of people at work and keep telling myself about how things will be fine tomorrow when I already know they will not? Or should I just go ahead and put one in their stupid good-for-nothing heads?

My friend has this sort of issue. I find that it is mainly him not liking work and taking it out on his coworkers. He does his job well but then just can't get on with his coworkers in a normal fashion and eventually gets fired or quits. After he lost his last job he got brainwashed (rather willingly of course) into believing it would be better to take time out from working and "follow his goals and dreams" since work was just such a horrible waste of his time and talent anyway. He left me holding the bag on rent and bills until our lease was up and then went to stay with someone else who eventually got tired of him and kicked him out. Now he has moved on to mooching off of family while he "follows his dreams" and "does something better with himself".

Perhaps you have a rather unique situation in the jobs you have done (if you are in fact portraying your own situation) but for the most part it is really just part of regular adult life that you will wind up dealing with people you would rather not. There are idiots and drama queens in every walk of life. Getting a college education, finding a better job, or "following your dreams" is not going to alleviate you of this burden of everyday life.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

SA went above and beyond with his personal sacrifice. He could come live with me anytime. I'd be proud to help someone like that. I'm the same way, I never, ever asked for help or took the easy way out. I had jobs that paid $1.50 an hour and worked 90 hours a week, seriously.

And thank you Evo. :-)
My smelling of cigarettes would likely be a deal breaker though. ;-p

 

[waht]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

 

[Evo]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

That doesn't make any sense to me. They're leeches because of what environment?

We're talking about the examples Penqwuino gave.

 

[blank.black]

My friend has this sort of issue. I find that it is mainly him not liking work and taking it out on his coworkers. He does his job well but then just can't get on with his coworkers in a normal fashion and eventually gets fired or quits. After he lost his last job he got brainwashed (rather willingly of course) into believing it would be better to take time out from working and "follow his goals and dreams" since work was just such a horrible waste of his time and talent anyway. He left me holding the bag on rent and bills until our lease was up and then went to stay with someone else who eventually got tired of him and kicked him out. Now he has moved on to mooching off of family while he "follows his dreams" and "does something better with himself".

Perhaps you have a rather unique situation in the jobs you have done (if you are in fact portraying your own situation) but for the most part it is really just part of regular adult life that you will wind up dealing with people you would rather not. There are idiots and drama queens in every walk of life. Getting a college education, finding a better job, or "following your dreams" is not going to alleviate you of this burden of everyday life.

Sorry to hear about what your friend put you through.

So if I got this right, what you are saying is that the answer to the situation I described is that I should just put up with idiots like that and just let things slide. So instead of performing one task at work like I normally would, if I have to end up performing multiple tasks just because I am covering for someone else who is smoking by the backdoor or texting in the bathroom, then I should go ahead and do that just because lazy people are now an everyday phenomena?

 

[turbo]

Some people expect to be "helped out" all their lives. I have a sister who is married to an absolute slug. My father is living on a meager retirement income, yet she was pressing him to let her daughter move in with him and put her through college. When my father was working for a privately-owned wood products mill, the owner and his wife paid him extra wages in the form of savings bonds every week so the payroll people wouldn't know just how much he was earning. He saved all those bonds and put them jointly in the names of himself and each one of us kids. A couple of weeks ago, my sister called him begging for money and wanted her "inheritance" early, so she and her husband could put a down-payment on the house they are renting. 30+ years of marriage, and they never managed to save enough money to buy a house? My father was pretty upset about that phone call and called me immediately afterward, because all the bonds are in my big Mosler safe, and he thought that she might call me for the bonds or perhaps a "loan". He needn't have concerned himself. I don't give money to moochers. They would only default on the mortgage and lose the property and up-front money to the bank.

 

[zoobyshoe]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

I think the problem is nurture, not nature. People who avoid working were never taught to work, and were taught to expect someone else to take care of them. By the time they're a certain age this programming has become their default state.

When I was about 10 my mother said allowance had to be earned: floors had to be swept and dishes washed. The next step was that she put the word out I was available to neighbors for after school yardwork. I mowed lawns, and shoveled snow for my spending money. At 14 I got a real job for the summer: collecting the eggs (from 2000 irate chickens). It was 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. It was a dirty, smelly job, but I was rather wealthy for a 14 year old. Anyway, I got the message: money comes from work.

I think it's a thing people have to be taught just like they have to be taught to read. We're born having to be completely taken care of, helpless. Good parenting requires teaching a kid to earn his/her money at a young age. If you go into the personal history of an authentic "leech" I think you'll find this lesson was badly botched or completely neglected.

 

[waht]

That doesn't make any sense to me. They're leeches because of what environment?

We're talking about the examples Penqwuino gave.

I'm saying that from an evolutionary point of view, people have evolved to survive in the jungle so to speak. But all of sudden we find ourselves in highly complex societies of modern world, and as a result some people have harder time coping than others.

Mooching and lending a helping hand to a stranger could have been useful back in the caveman times, but the trait still exists today which manifests itself into welfare system among many other things.

I think the problem is nurture, not nature.

I'm leaning towards that the problem is a subtle interplay of both.

Consider that cases of siblings growing up in a same household, and one sibling is working hard and turns out fine, and the other is eternally unhappy, did tons of jobs before, borrows money and never pays back, and mooches off of friends and family.

People who avoid working were never taught to work, and were taught to expect someone else to take care of them. By the time they're a certain age this programming has become their default state. / If you go into the personal history of an authentic "leech" I think you'll find this lesson was badly botched or completely neglected.

But is it still their fault they weren't taught hard work early on, or that they were always being taken care of?

It seems like these are all forces outside of anyone's control.

 

[turbo]

I think it's a thing people have to be taught just like they have to be taught to read. We're born having to be completely taken care of, helpless. Good parenting requires teaching a kid to earn his/her money at a young age. If you go into the personal history of an authentic "leech" I think you'll find this lesson was badly botched or completely neglected.

You're right. I got NO allowance, though I shoveled the driveway and the clothesline and walks, took care of the garbage, lugged 5-gallon containers of heating oil to the stoves all winter, did all the mowing, raking, etc, and weeded the vegetable garden. If I wanted money, I had to earn it outside the home, so by 12, I had a paper route and did odd-jobs for others. Soon after, I got a part-time job at the local cemetery. The next season, I was the only kid that the sexton hired, so I was full-time plus overtime at $1.25/hr. The first selectman was mad because his kid was one of the 3 that didn't get hired back. I was 2 years younger than them, but worked a LOT harder. At 17, I got a job flagging for a road-construction project. I was initially started as a skid-steer loader operator until the superintendent found out that I was 17. The foreman was upset about losing me because I was a safe and reliable operator, but state law says you have to be 18 to operate heavy equipment. I was making OK money that summer, but wanted more, so I ate on the job (flagging isn't that demanding) and spent my lunch hours greasing Euclids for extra pay.

It is so foreign to me to try to understand the mind-set of people who feel that they deserve to "skate by" all of their lives, doing little or nothing to improve their situations.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm leaning towards that the problem is a subtle interplay of both.

Consider that cases of siblings growing up in a same household, and one sibling is working hard and turns out fine, and the other is eternally unhappy, did tons of jobs before, borrows money and never pays back, and mooches off of friends and family.

Too hypothetical. I'd have to see an exact case and study it for a long time to find out what went wrong.

But is it still their fault they weren't taught hard work early on, or that they were always being taken care of?

No, it's not their fault. If someone hasn't been taught to read and write by the time they're 18 suddenly requiring them to figure out how to learn to read and write is unrealistic.

It seems like these are all forces outside of anyone's control.

Probably not, but it would be very hard to correct.

There are huge problems that have to be solved first. Like, how do we teach mortgage lenders not to rape the economy?

 

[Evo]

I'm saying that from an evolutionary point of view, people have evolved to survive in the jungle so to speak. But all of sudden we find ourselves in highly complex societies of modern world, and as a result some people have harder time coping than others.

All of a sudden, as in over the last 50,000 years?

Being a worthless leech is not evolutionary.

But let's not keep dragging this off topic, please respond to the OP. Thanks.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It is so foreign to me to try to understand the mind-set of people who feel that they deserve to "skate by" all of their lives, doing little or nothing to improve their situations.

Someone botched or completely neglected the job of teaching them. Waiting for someone else to help becomes ingrained in their psychology. They completely lack the history you and I have.

 

[turbo]

Someone botched or completely neglected the job of teaching them. Waiting for someone else to help becomes ingrained in their psychology. They completely lack the history you and I have.

You'd think that if they had a modicum of intelligence, they could look around and see people who have become self-sufficient through hard work and frugality. I don't hold out much hope though, because there are too many ways to mooch instead of work and too many enablers who allow themselves to be taken.

My sisters and I were raised in a time when mothers stayed home and fathers worked, and my sisters milked the system for all it was worth. About the only help they gave around the house was doing the dishes, and getting THAT was like pulling teeth - they complained and whined about everything they were asked to do and my parents didn't have the patience or persistence to face them down. Now as adults, two of them have no savings. If a vehicle breaks down, they can't pay to have it repaired and they cry for money to "help them out". It's always a "poor me" story that somehow omits the little detail that they have never lived within their means and saved enough money to cope with the inevitable unforeseen expenses. I don't give them money for "emergencies" - they wouldn't be "emergencies" if there was a modest savings account to cover the costs. It's sad to see people in their mid-50's who are that clueless about personal finances.

Thankfully, the youngest finally broke out of her dependency and is doing OK. She works as a home health-care coordinator during the week, and tends bar at a hotel every Friday and Saturday night. She has her own house and a nice lot in town, and she pinches her pennies.

 

[waht]

Too hypothetical. I'd have to see an exact case and study it for a long time to find out what went wrong.

Yes probably. I'm just relating to my own sibling who has a vastly different personality from mine.

All of a sudden, as in over the last 50,000 years?

That's a blink of an eye.

Being a worthless leech is not evolutionary.

I disagree with this, that's why I'm not so quick to jump on the band wagon and label moochers as losers without having some deeper level understanding of their situation.

But let's not keep dragging this off topic, please respond to the OP. Thanks.

Yes, I agree.

 

[zoobyshoe]

My sisters and I were raised in a time when mothers stayed home and fathers worked, and my sisters milked the system for all it was worth. About the only help they gave around the house was doing the dishes, and getting THAT was like pulling teeth - they complained and whined about everything they were asked to do and my parents didn't have the patience or persistence to face them down. Now as adults, two of them have no savings. If a vehicle breaks down, they can't pay to have it repaired and they cry for money to "help them out". It's always a "poor me" story that somehow omits the little detail that they have never lived within their means and saved enough money to cope with the inevitable unforeseen expenses. I don't give them money for "emergencies" - they wouldn't be "emergencies" if there was a modest savings account to cover the costs. It's sad to see people in their mid-50's who are that clueless about personal finances.

I think a "no allowance" policy for household chores is bad. To the extent the house becomes a little workplace at chore time it mentally prepares kids for the real life workplace. The handing out of allowance at the completion of the work is important. The kid learns: work = money.

 

[Pengwuino]

But is it still their fault they weren't taught hard work early on, or that they were always being taken care of?

It seems like these are all forces outside of anyone's control.

I think this is part of becoming mature. Things and habbits and ways of living or thinking that one may have developed as a kid may not fly in the real world as an adult. As a kid, my parents paid for everything, I didn't have to do chores, and had a generally easy life. However, at some point (and thank God this was when I was still a teenager), I realized that that's not how life works. To be able to have things and live a decent life, you have to have money which requires a job that you're required to go to continuously. I also realized people will rarely do things for you in the real world and if they do, it's not the norm and shouldn't be something to expect.

Someone brought up the idea of "following your dreams" which made me giggle just a bit . I'm not as down on people who do this then one might expect. Going to college is in a sense, following a dream for a rather select people (you know, those few people who go into X major hoping to go into X major's fields). Then again, maybe this is why so many people feel an entitlement to receive a college education and continue that feeling of entitlement into the rest of their life. Let's face it, I can't imagine ANYONE who pays the true cost of their college education alone (public universities/colleges are subsidized and I can't imagine anyone paying their private university tuition upfront with their own savings). Everyone's a leech on that system. Student's leech off the government and student loans and creditors. Then when their rates go up or their classes get canceled or their loans don't get there in time, they complain and go protest and make themselves look silly. I remember during all the tuition hike hoopla last year, they interviewed some idiot at Berkeley that claimed free education was a right. A lot of people believe this as well. To me, that's the equivalent of someone saying it's their right to move into your house and then complain that their room isn't big enough or the temperature isn't just right. What kind of world do we live in?

You'd think that if they had a modicum of intelligence, they could look around and see people who have become self-sufficient through hard work and frugality. I don't hold out much hope though, because there are too many ways to mooch instead of work and too many enablers who allow themselves to be taken.

Enablers! They're the problem too! It's SO hard to say no to family! What I hate is when there are people who know that there are members of their family that will always help them and they intentionally take advantage. It's so unfortunate when people will help family out simply because "they're family". It's also so difficult to break the dependence because "what will everyone think?". In my experience, when you help a friend, only you and the friend and maybe a few other people will know about it. When it's family... ohhh boy, if you're like my family, information crosses state lines. I personally don't do anything for someone for the sole reason of "because they're family". If I do something for someone in my family, it's because they've helped me before or because they're good people and deserve it, not just because we're related.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I remember during all the tuition hike hoopla last year, they interviewed some idiot at Berkeley that claimed free education was a right. A lot of people believe this as well.

There's a distinct cognitive dissonance built into the system. Up through high school education is not only free, it's required. Then suddenly, it's elective, but you have to pay exorbitant fees for it.

 

[Klockan3]

It is so foreign to me to try to understand the mind-set of people who feel that they deserve to "skate by" all of their lives, doing little or nothing to improve their situations.

I don't understand people who thinks that life isn't worth living unless you got a lot of money. Seriously most things are just about free and you can save the rest. I have barely worked in my life but I also learned to not spend so I have a ton saved up anyway, for example when I was 11 I had worked together roughly 500 dollars from door to door selling, what did I do? I of course invested it all on the stock market! What else was there to do? The funny thing about that btw is that that investment is now worth more than 10 times that...

 

[waht]

I think this is part of becoming mature. Things and habbits and ways of living or thinking that one may have developed as a kid may not fly in the real world as an adult.

That's generally true, but some people just never grow up, might have narcissistic personality or could carry too much childhood baggage well into adulthood.

Everyone's a leech on that system. Student's leech off the government and student loans and creditors.

This stems from an innate human desire to take advantage of something, and some people have it more than others. There is also an innate desire to help others in need, both at a keen and a charity level, and some people have it more than others.

And so a conflict arises when these these two opposing forces interact and manifest into all sorts of grotesque social situations.

What kind of world do we live in?

There are huge problems that have to be solved first. Like, how do we teach mortgage lenders not to rape the economy?

This is just a natural and emergent outcome. Systems theory might provide a good answer to this. I'm currently studying more about it.

 

[Evo]

There are huge problems that have to be solved first. Like, how do we teach mortgage lenders not to rape the economy?

As anyone that has purchased a home knows, you have to meet certain requirements. Many people that were turned down willingly pursued mortgage loans that they KNEW they didn't qualify for. It was the people applying that that were actually more at fault than the agent. The agent told them how to get around the checks, the buyers were the "criminals" that did it. If someone tells you how you can kill a person and you go out and actually kill someone, you are guilty of murder, not them.

When I was in my 20's, my husband and I were going to buy a larger house, and the agent told us that we could qualify if we did a "few things" to make it look like we could qualify. We said no thanks, and backed out.

Only an imbicile would not understand that that being told how to fake the amount of money they had was a red flag.

They told us to ask a family member to deposit money into our bank account before our balance was checked and leave it for at least a month. There was just a whole bunch of harmless little tricks we were told to do. I can't remember them all right now. Well, we weren't imbeciles, so we didn't get in over our heads. We waited until we were able to get a loan without playing tricks.

No more off topic. And please, if you quote someone, PLEASE use the quote function that links to the post so people do not have to hunt it down. Please? That's not you zoob.

 

[rootX]

Evo, I would like to add something before you block this thread for this thread being off topic. Please wait for few more hours before you consider that

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sorry to hear about what your friend put you through.

So if I got this right, what you are saying is that the answer to the situation I described is that I should just put up with idiots like that and just let things slide. So instead of performing one task at work like I normally would, if I have to end up performing multiple tasks just because I am covering for someone else who is smoking by the backdoor or texting in the bathroom, then I should go ahead and do that just because lazy people are now an everyday phenomena?

There are different ways of dealing with this sort of thing. Myself being the sort that generally just does what needs to be done without complaint (except the usual b****ing to friends of course) I made the mistake of not saying anything when I was in a similar circumstance. Technically you should talk to a supervisor and let them know what is going on if your coworkers are screwing up or just screwing around and things are not getting done the way they are supposed to.

I used to be of the mindset that all I have to do is work hard and do a good job and my bosses would see this and reward me. That should be the way things are but unfortunately they are not. Instead, when I just knuckled under and did what needed doing, I often wound up receiving complaints against me. Because I never spoke up my bosses never knew what I was doing and what I was dealing with. On the other hand my lazy coworkers who liked to chat and socialize were constantly talking to the boss and making themselves out to be superheroes doing everything.

I understand, believe me, that work place politics is probably something you would rather steer clear of but actually keeping a line of communication open with your superiors is really essential to any good work place. You don't need to involve yourself with the politics but talking to your boss is very important. I have also dealt with short sighted and temperamental bosses so I understand that this will not always be possible either. After nearly three years at my last job I got fed up with my boss and left, he was in fact the worst part of that job, though I made sure I had a new job before I left.

In my current job I am lucky that I have very cool bosses even though the job itself sucks. A primary part of my work is conflict resolution so I have become rather familiar dealing with jerks and drama queens. I have actually found that in most cases a bit of diplomacy and communication is all that is really needed. People are often simply ignorant of their neighbours circumstances or just need a little reminder that there are in fact other people in the universe aside from them. Some are just implacable which is where communication with my superiors becomes imperative otherwise the things these people say about me could easily get me fired.

So now that I have gone on a complete tangent from the OP, to sum up, it is probably best to talk first with your coworkers, if you believe communication there is possible, and then speak with your superiors. If neither is possible then you may well be best served by finding a new job.

edit: To bring this back 'round to the OP, communicating with your leeches may be a good way of getting through this sort of thing. In the worst instances it does not help, I know from experience, but it is certainly worthwhile to try.

 

[rootX]

I was looking through humorous books at my library and coincidentally found "How to ruin your life" which perfectly describes losers as follows:

Don't Learn Any Useful Skills
Don't Learn Any Self-Discipline
Convince Yourself You're the Center of the Universe
Never accept any responsibility for anything that goes wrong
Criticize Early and Often
Never be Grateful
Envy Everything; Appreciate Nothing
Be a Perfectionist
Think Too Big
Don't Enjoy Simple Things in Life
Fix Anyone and Everyone At Any Time
Treat the People Who are Good to Your Badly
Treat the People Who Are Bad to Your Well
Hang Out with the Wrong Crowd
Make the People Around You Feel Small
Keep Score
Use Drugs and Alcohol Freely
Don't Save Any Money
Ignore Your Family
Know that the rules of reasonable, Decent Conduct Don't Apply to You
...

Author goes into 35 different chapter each explaining a different way on how to ruin your life.

 

[AUK 1138]

Set a man a fire and he's warm for a day.
Set a man afire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

I can't let this go unpraised. consider it praised.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The agent told them how to get around the checks, the buyers were the "criminals" that did it. If someone tells you how you can kill a person and you go out and actually kill someone, you are guilty of murder, not them.

There's more too it. The mortgage industry had run out of good, solid mortgages to bundle and sell to investors. They began actively encouraging all kinds of people who didn't qualify so they would have bundles to sell. Once sold, the bad investments were not their problem. The investors got raped, and then, ultimately, everyone because of the collapse of housing prices.

I honestly applaud you for not taking on a debt you knew you couldn't afford. Few who want to own their own home can resist the temptation.

The example set here by the mortgage industry is "take anything you can get away with". Makes it harder to teach kids not to leech in the face of mass, real world leeches. You probably remember the junk-bond upset from years back. Similar thing.

 

[ViewsofMars]

In your life experience, how often do people freeload in your opinion?

Dear OP, I've never met a freeloader. I have from time to time helped people out.