How often does helping someone out ever help?

[Pengwuino]

How often does "helping someone out" ever.. help?

Ok I have a good one! I personally hate the idea of welfare (and no, not government sponsored welfare... but actually yes, that too). I have really become down on the idea of helping people who have the means to help themselves.

What am I talking about? I have a few examples to clarify exactly what I mean since not all welfare is bad!

I have a family member who just cannot let their kids go. The kids (and by kids, I mean 23-30 year olds) rarely have jobs, one gets fired normally after 1 paycheck when he goes out and parties after receiving it and then proceeds to never return to work, another is too lazy to even legally maintain a drivers license/car, and i don't know what's up with the other. Of course, they live at home and are constantly being told to do something or they'll be kicked out... they never do that something... and are never kicked out.

My second example is a girl who went to my mothers church that had "nowhere to go". So she moved in under the condition that she looks (just looks!) for work and goes to school (she's a foster kid so schooling is completely paid for and her life is supported if she attends). Three months later... she has a job that she earned $12 total last month... but oh no, that's a job in her opinion... and of course no school as far as we can tell.

My third example is a friend of mine who actually could have moved back in with her parents for the summer but begged to stay here so she could work in the city. Of course, almost two weeks in I've seen her leave the house maybe 2 times and neither out to look for a job. She sleeps all day and just hangs out and blah blah blah's with the girl in the second example.

So, all this got me to thinking. I think most people have been in a situation where they offered to help someone out in situations like these or at least know people who have been in situations like these. I think we ALL know of people who take advantage of some sort of system in place to kind of "float through life" as well. I know many people who basically live off of financial aid for school and never look for an actual job because they can get by without it. I also know some (and through these people, know of entire buildings full of people doing this) people who just work seasonally and then claim unemployment for 6-8 months and live off this. Does anyone earn an honest living anymore??!

It also got me thinking... I wonder how often people offer someone a place to live and the people in the end actually move out because their situation improved and they left as promised instead of moving out because the person letting them stay got pissed and kicked them out. It feels like with certain people, as long as they know they have a place to stay, they live their life as they please!

So here's my assignment for you forumers. In your life experience, how often do people freeload in your opinion? I'm starting to think if you offer anything to anyone and expect certain conditions to be met, you're kidding yourself half the time. I'm remiss to ever label people as "those kinda people" based on certain ways they live their lives... however, in this case, I'm making an exception. I'm starting to think if you're the kind of person who can't support yourself, outside of having problems outside of your control, you're just a low life individual.

::end rant::

 

[DaveC426913]

Sometimes, unconditional love means giving someone a hand up even when you doubt it will pay off.

And sometimes these "doldrum" years are a phase. It seems endless, but flash forward five years then look back and you realize - it passes.

I went through a "lost" phase. I came out of it. I'm not proud of how long I was in it but I might not have the success I have now if I had simply been kicked out.

Also, one must be cautious of judging without having first walked a mile in another's shoes.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Evo]

LOSERS!

I've worked my a$$ off all of my life since I was 14. I have no sympathy for losers.

I can understand a hardworker temporarily down on their luck, but not people that are moochers.

 

[rootX]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Lao Tzu

Personally, I neither prefer to be near people who are too nice nor those who are just losers.

 

[Math Is Hard]

When I was in my 20s, I took in a meth addict girl. I gave her food and shelter and took her to my dentist to get her rotten teeth fixed (I helped her with that, and my dentist was very kind and gave us a super low price).
But she just went right back to drugs and her abusive drug dealer boyfriend and I had to boot her out. Lesson learned.
My policy now is NO charity to people. I only support organizations that help animals.

 

[DaveC426913]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Lao Tzu

Set a man a fire and he's warm for a day.
Set a man afire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

 

[Pengwuino]

Also, one must be cautious of judging without having first walked a mile in another's shoes.

Just some food for thought.

See, I hear this all the time and there are limitations to how long I can believe that BS. I give people the benefit of the doubt and patience more often and for longer than anyone I know. I find it almost impossible to believe, however, that anything could have happened in someones life or is happening to them at the time that forces someone to sit infront of the tv all day every day or talking to friends on the phone and hanging out with them continuously instead of getting a real job. As for the people who get unemployment while doing that seasonal gig i mentioned, it is completely intentional (and this is not my opinion, this is what the people actually say). They're honestly "smart", why work the rest of the year when the government will give you money to not work? And yes, it is money to not work, I know many people who have used unemployment and know people/family with decades of experience working in social services and they all know its easy to game the system.

 

[Gokul43201]

Sometimes, unconditional love means giving someone a hand up even when you doubt it will pay off.

You seem to state this as though unconditional love is obviously a good thing.

Also, one must be cautious of judging without having first walked a mile in another's shoes.

Speak not ill of murderers and rapists!

 

[DaveC426913]

I've worked my a$$ off all of my life since I was 14. I have no sympathy for losers.

Never really understood this logic.
Because I personally have not had experience X, I don't believe anyone else can have had experience X.

 

[rootX]

Never really understood this logic.
Because I personally have not had experience X, I don't believe anyone else can have had experience X.

Everyone fails once a while on epic scales and sees his/her bad days. There is no exception to this I believe. You can either be a loser or confront your failure.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I have recently had such an issue. I have also seen it happen several times. I think that the primary consideration is that those people who do not leech you will not find leeching. If I lost my job I would have a job very soon and not allow myself to sit leeching off of others. The one instance where I did find myself in a situation where I could not for the life of me find a job I broke down emotionally, felt like a horrible piece of ****, apologized to my friends who were supporting me, and left to find a situation where I could get myself a job. The last time I lost my place to live (because of a roommate who was leeching off of me), when I had to move out and save money before I could find and move into another place, I lived in my car rather than foist myself onto any of my friends or relatives. I did not even tell my family what was going on to avoid their offers of help.

 

[DaveC426913]

You seem to state this as though unconditional love is obviously a good thing.

And you seem to state that as if whether it's a good thing or not changes anything.

 

[Pengwuino]

Never really understood this logic.
Because I personally have not had experience X, I don't believe anyone else can have had experience X.

I don't think that's entirely what she means. I think it's more of "I had to choose between X and Y, Y being easier or less moral or what have you than X, thus I have no sympathy for people who face problems because of their choice, Y".

 

[DaveC426913]

I lived in my car rather than foist myself onto any of my friends or relatives. I did not even tell my family what was going on to avoid their offers of help.

Where did you iron your suit for interviews? Sometimes, not refusing a helping hand is dumb, and even destructive.

 

[Moonbear]

Oh, I've seen this plenty of times. And, yes, freeloaders will continue freeloading as long as there's a sucker willing to support that lifestyle. I have no tolerance for it, but I've seen even employed people manage to bum a room in someone's house while "looking for an apartment" but then no apartment is good enough. They get kicked out, and move in with someone else "just until they can find a place of their own," etc. But, more often they're complete leeches who live somewhere until they get thrown out, find another place until they get thrown out, etc. The only way people finally get rid of them is to fill out the rental application for them and move them out and then change the locks on the doors so they can't get back in when they get evicted for not paying the rent.

No, it doesn't help them to let them keep bumming off people. It's amazing how resourceful they can get when they run out of places to bum a couch from.

Once in a rare while, someone really does just need a temporary arrangement. An example is the post-doc moving from another state who needs a place to stay for a week or two while apartment hunting because they couldn't find a place without looking at it first. I've put up a few people like that for a week or two in my guest room, but they've been previously self-sufficient and the conditions were clear that it was temporary (they didn't even move all their stuff in, just put it in storage and brought a suitcase of clothes).

In contrast, there's a staff person in my department with a long history of never paying rent, just moving from one temporary home to another while supposedly looking for apartments and never finding one that quite suits him. Fortunately, I was warned about this, and made sure never to mention to him that I had a spare bedroom. I later found out he is allergic to cats, so talked about my cat a LOT.

I have a step-brother who used to be really bad about bouncing from couch to couch as he quit or got fired from one job or another. Too many people took him in. When it was my turn, I refused. I told him it was time to grow up and be a man.

 

[DaveC426913]

... people who face problems because of their choice, Y".

Yeah, I'm finding this a running theme. MiH had a similar example where she seemed to think the Meth Addict chose to go back to drugs.

Being in a depressive state sort of goes hand-in-hand with being unable to do a lot about it.

 

[Evo]

Where did you iron your suit for interviews? Sometimes, not refusing a helping hand is dumb, and even destructive.

SA went above and beyond with his personal sacrifice. He could come live with me anytime. I'd be proud to help someone like that. I'm the same way, I never, ever asked for help or took the easy way out. I had jobs that paid $1.50 an hour and worked 90 hours a week, seriously.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Where did you iron your suit for interviews? Sometimes, not refusing a helping hand is dumb, and even destructive.

I had a job. I did not have a place to live, hence living in my car. If you mean interviews for apartment rentals I just wore regular clothing and I serviced them in a regular old laundr-o-mat. If I could afford to live somewhere that I would need a suit to interview for I would have been staying in motel rooms (which I did do on weekends when I hadn't even work to go to).

 

[Pengwuino]

See, while I very much dislike leeches, I do have to say I strongly object to the idea of people refusing all help no matter what. The reason I do actually like the various forms of private and social and governmental welfare is that it's, in my opinion, far more destructive to allow someone to barely scrape by or hit rock bottom if it's possible to "hold them up". Oddly enough, these days it feels like the people most deserving of this safety net are the people who refuse it the most and visa versa.

 

[DaveC426913]

See, while I very much dislike leeches, I do have to say I strongly object to the idea of people refusing all help no matter what. The reason I do actually like the various forms of private and social and governmental welfare is that it's, in my opinion, far more destructive to allow someone to barely scrape by or hit rock bottom if it's possible to "hold them up". Oddly enough, these days it feels like the people most deserving of this safety net are the people who refuse it the most and visa versa.

Well, that safety net is what we call Employment Insurance. It's for people in the workforce to carry them through a dry spell till they can get back in the saddle.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well, that safety net is what we call Employment Insurance. It's for people in the workforce to carry them through a dry spell till they can get back in the saddle.

Yes, but also when friends and family want to help out, people shouldn't feel ashamed to accept it. I think if there's any valid way of grouping people in life, it's people who leech, and people who will sell their own body parts before they ask help, and very few people in between. With that in mind, if I were ever to help someone out big time and I practically had to force the help upon them, I'd bet good money I wouldn't regret the decision.

 

[rootX]

This thread reminds me of Two and Half men :rofl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QopVObcmOCk

 

[GeorginaS]

I've been on my own since I was 17 years old. I worked, had my own place, was self-sufficient and willingly shared my home with different people who have wandered in and out of my life. I've worked hard, didn't get any support from my parents, put myself through school, donated, volunteered, and etc. and never once considered applying to the government for help. I made myself stand on my own two feet, and I think I've done a pretty decent job of it.

And you know what? At one point in my life, a really, really bad thing happened to me, over which I had no control. And you know what else? I lost absolutely everything I'd worked for, and I was entirely incapable of helping myself much less even making sure I was safe. And, so, yeah. I got to be one the people you're so liberally calling a "loser", here. I had to depend on friends to help me out until the awful storm passed, and I could work towards getting my feet back under me. It was an entirely crazy situation. I got out of it, but I guess I was a loser by the definition here.

Sometimes stuff happens to people. Also, there's another thing to consider. Contrary to the constitution of the US of A, not all people are created equal. Periodically we can step back and look at ourselves and thank genetics that we're hung together the way that we are. Not everyone is as capable as the next person. Some people seriously cannot connect the dots. That doesn't mean that everything should be done for them and that doesn't mean that you should suddenly have chronic freeloaders living on your sofa.

Sometimes people take longer to get it together than you are prepared to tolerate. Then my advice is: don't be around it. Don't watch and don't listen if the people who are supposedly doing the giving complain about it. That, too, is their lot to deal with. Keep your eyes on your own paper and spend study time with people that mean something to you. Everyone else will get along just fine without you watching and ranting about them.

 

[rootX]

Everyone else will get along just fine

with your tax money.

 

[GeorginaS]

with your tax money.

Well, if feeding some people who didn't work for it is the worst thing my tax dollars go to, I can live pretty happily with that.

 

[Pengwuino]

I got to be one the people you're so liberally calling a "loser", here.

I don't think anyone here gave the impression that people that stumble upon "hard times" are "losers". I think there's a distinct difference between people who are going through a rough patch and people who simply have entertainment as a higher priority then self-sufficiency.

 

[Borg]

My sister has to sell her house this year - partly because of all the money that she spent supporting our half-sister and her four kids. My sister took her in after the half-sister left her husband. The half-sister was studying but, whenever she had any money, there was always an excuse why she couldn't help with the bills.

Of course, I also blame my sister for providing them with cable, a cell phone, restaurant trips, etc. when she had a house that she could barely afford. It makes me sad to see this happen but, I know that if I helped, nothing would change. Both of them are very religious. You can guess which one quotes passages about helping others.

 

[blank.black]

If I am a "loser" and have to live under another person's care and support, simply because I cannot keep a job(that I need to put myself through college so that I can look for a better job) due to the fact that I come home everyday wanting to K-I-L-L the people I work with because of how stupid, ignorant, lazy, dramatic, etc. they are...then what advice do you have for me? Should I continue hopping from one job to another and hence keep living in someone elses house? Should I put up with those kind of people at work and keep telling myself about how things will be fine tomorrow when I already know they will not? Or should I just go ahead and put one in their stupid good-for-nothing heads?

 

[Evo]

The "losers" are the ones that don't want to make it on their own, the ones that would rather mooch off other people forever.

It's not about people that try and have bad luck, or run into trouble.

My daughter just moved back in with me to save money, she goes to college full time and holds two jobs. It makes sense for her to move in because we can help each other out.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

There certainly are people who just don't want to work and make a living for themselves and prefer living off others or government money.

Well, what's there to do? We can't exactly let them starve to death. That doesn't mean you should let them reside on your couch, of course.

On the other hand, there ARE people who are honestly "going through a phase" or "looking for an apartment" and who would gladly help you in the same way... So I guess it depends on the person and the situation.

 

[Lacy33]

My sister has to sell her house this year - partly because of all the money that she spent supporting our half-sister and her four kids. My sister took her in after the half-sister left her husband. The half-sister was studying but, whenever she had any money, there was always an excuse why she couldn't help with the bills.

Of course, I also blame my sister for providing them with cable, a cell phone, restaurant trips, etc. when she had a house that she could barely afford. It makes me sad to see this happen but, I know that if I helped, nothing would change. Both of them are very religious. You can guess which one quotes passages about helping others.

If someone is using religious verses, then I remember one about.. Not being allowed to be righteous on the backs of another. (paraphrase)

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

If I am a "loser" and have to live under another person's care and support, simply because I cannot keep a job(that I need to put myself through college so that I can look for a better job) due to the fact that I come home everyday wanting to K-I-L-L the people I work with because of how stupid, ignorant, lazy, dramatic, etc. they are...then what advice do you have for me? Should I continue hopping from one job to another and hence keep living in someone elses house? Should I put up with those kind of people at work and keep telling myself about how things will be fine tomorrow when I already know they will not? Or should I just go ahead and put one in their stupid good-for-nothing heads?

My friend has this sort of issue. I find that it is mainly him not liking work and taking it out on his coworkers. He does his job well but then just can't get on with his coworkers in a normal fashion and eventually gets fired or quits. After he lost his last job he got brainwashed (rather willingly of course) into believing it would be better to take time out from working and "follow his goals and dreams" since work was just such a horrible waste of his time and talent anyway. He left me holding the bag on rent and bills until our lease was up and then went to stay with someone else who eventually got tired of him and kicked him out. Now he has moved on to mooching off of family while he "follows his dreams" and "does something better with himself".

Perhaps you have a rather unique situation in the jobs you have done (if you are in fact portraying your own situation) but for the most part it is really just part of regular adult life that you will wind up dealing with people you would rather not. There are idiots and drama queens in every walk of life. Getting a college education, finding a better job, or "following your dreams" is not going to alleviate you of this burden of everyday life.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

SA went above and beyond with his personal sacrifice. He could come live with me anytime. I'd be proud to help someone like that. I'm the same way, I never, ever asked for help or took the easy way out. I had jobs that paid $1.50 an hour and worked 90 hours a week, seriously.

And thank you Evo. :-)
My smelling of cigarettes would likely be a deal breaker though. ;-p

 

[waht]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

 

[Evo]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

That doesn't make any sense to me. They're leeches because of what environment?

We're talking about the examples Penqwuino gave.