How Old are You? - Revisiting an Old PFs Thread

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Integral
Wisdom is one of those things that cannot be sought, it either comes or it doesn't. If fact the harder you seek it the less likely you are to find it. Identical life expericnces will make one man wise and another insane, there is no rules and no path. Indeed, it may be something you are born with, but it cannot fully bloom until you have suffered the blows life deals out.

One thing that is certian, the louder you proclaim your wisdom the less likely you are to have it.

For an execellent description of a path to wisdom read Hermen Hesse's book Sidharatha

BTW: I totally agree with everything LWseeth has written.

And perhaps, when I am old, I will also agree with LW Sleeth.

There is one term that I wish to draw to your and his attention: unspoiled.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Mentat
But the discussion is on wisdom, and it appears to me that you believe wisdom to be inseperably associated with broad developement.

Yes. The broader the better. And it doesn't mean you can't specialize in something too.

Originally posted by Mentat
I guess you're right about demanding fair treatment; however, I still can't understand how all of these people, who hold down anyone with potential, could have been in my situation before, but learned nothing from it

Good point. People tend to do unto others as has been done unto them; that's partially why there are too few wise people.

Originally posted by Mentat
Sure, one can attain knowledge from making mistakes, and learning from them. But isn't it the wise course to learn from the mistakes of others, so as to avoid them yourself?

Yes, and that is a smart way to see it. But it doesn't matter whose mistakes you recognize and avoid, you are still going to make your own mistakes. And the more you seek true wisdom, the more mistakes you will make because you will find yourself following paths outside the "rank and file" (i.e., where there may not be much support or advice for you).

Also, and this is main reason I am responding to you again, I realized after I wrote that little collection of events in my last post that it was all mistakes and hard times that can hit a person as they mature. But there are also the successes, especially if someone is really trying to learn. When you see a person who has been through a lot and is still happy and hopeful, you know they've been learning and it is that which they choose to focus on, not the mistakes.

Originally posted by Mentat
But, you see? You have equated being elderly with having power.

Well, how many children do you know in power?

Originally posted by Mentat
I've never been a "kid". It has always been my opinion that a child is a nymph adult (if you'll excuse the analogy), and that to nurture childhood is to help an ambitious child explore his/her potential.

Too bad. What about enjoying yourself, having fun, being happy?

Originally posted by Mentat
But I'm not closing myself off from learning. In fact, I've been denouncing that kind of behavior (usually committed by adults who think themsleves superior to children).

I want you to think about something that I believe is a pretty good insight. If someone habitually and mindlessly goes along with social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc. just because "that's the way it's done," then wouldn't you say they are contemptable rank and file of your signature?

However, if you habitually and mindlessly go against social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc., then how are you different? A habitual contrary is no more conscious than a habitual sheep.

In other words, don't let bad experiences with oppressive people spoil your outlook by giving you an "attitude" where you should be neutral and open. If you do let it get to you like that, then those people who've oppressed you will continue to do so in absentia, and with your active participation!

 

[Fliption]

Originally posted by Mentat
Oh no, I would simply take a sip of some 30-year-old's soft drink, so to speak. I would definitely think that the 30-year-old would be wrong for patronizing me, simply because he thinks I haven't tasted soft drink #2 (though I might have, at some point). And I would speak out against people setting ages on when one should drink softdrink #2.

Well let me be more clear. It is not possible to drink these softdrinks before the age I specified. This is the whole point. That's what makes the analogy work.

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

 

[Andy]

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

Maybe you can? I am not too hot with this but if you where from the same planet as Mork (from Mork and Mindy) then wouldn't you get younger as you get older or is it get older as you get younger?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yes, and that is a smart way to see it. But it doesn't matter whose mistakes you recognize and avoid, you are still going to make your own mistakes. And the more you seek true wisdom, the more mistakes you will make because you will find yourself following paths outside the "rank and file" (i.e., where there may not be much support or advice for you).

Also, and this is main reason I am responding to you again, I realized after I wrote that little collection of events in my last post that it was all mistakes and hard times that can hit a person as they mature. But there are also the successes, especially if someone is really trying to learn. When you see a person who has been through a lot and is still happy and hopeful, you know they've been learning and it is that which they choose to focus on, not the mistakes.

Good point.

Well, how many children do you know in power?

I suppose I could mention King Josiah, but I suppose you are correct. Of course, it only seems to me as though this is a by-product of elderly peoples' missing the wisdom of young ones.

Too bad. What about enjoying yourself, having fun, being happy?

Learning makes me happy.

I want you to think about something that I believe is a pretty good insight. If someone habitually and mindlessly goes along with social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc. just because "that's the way it's done," then wouldn't you say they are contemptable rank and file of your signature?

However, if you habitually and mindlessly go against social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc., then how are you different? A habitual contrary is no more conscious than a habitual sheep.

In other words, don't let bad experiences with oppressive people spoil your outlook by giving you an "attitude" where you should be neutral and open. If you do let it get to you like that, then those people who've oppressed you will continue to do so in absentia, and with your active participation!

Thanks for that, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Fliption
Well let me be more clear. It is not possible to drink these softdrinks before the age I specified. This is the whole point. That's what makes the analogy work.

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

 

[Artman]

Originally posted by Mentat
What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

How do you know they are telling the truth?

It is kind of like learning to tie your shoes by reading a set of instructions, yet never actually having done it. Would you really know how?

 

[Integral]

What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

oh? and how do you earn wisdom? get to a certain age and it's yours? i would agree on many of your guy's statements:
1)wisdom can be acquired through experience. (a boy living in a rough innercity probably has more than a middle class boy becuase he is exposed to more experiences)

2) age is not a requirment for the gaining of wisdom. (like Mentat so wisely said: it only gives one more chances to gain wisdom)

3) therefore this would mean that older people are more likely to be wise, but that does not rule out the rest of us either. (if we spend our time well)

 

[Integral]

Did you read my post up above?

Wisdom is a result of life experiances, it is not a learned thing. Not everyone is capable of learning from life experience thus EARNING wisdom.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Perhaps I can add 'two cents' that will assist.

In defining Wisdom, from the example in the Bible of the Wisdom of Solomen, I will assume you know the story.

Hence what we find is that Solomen excersized "Good Judgment", in my opinon that is really what wisdom is, the ability to excersize "Good Judgments" which is why the appearance of the need of experianced knowledge, as that is the tool that assists in enabling the path towards good judgments.

Solomen had to draw from a knoweldge of human nature, knowing that the real mother of the child would sacrifce herself, to save her child.

It is from that base of knowledge that he was able to "test for the truth", and it is from the result of that test that he was able to excersize good judgment.

It is an ability to find 'truthful' knowledge, that leads to the ability to excersize good judgment, hence appear as wise.

But I agree with Integral, it is earned, and you have no knowledge of the price you must pay beforehand, hence it is given to you everytime, or not.

As the Bible tells, all true wisdom comes from God, Human wisdom is easily demonstrated as folly, and I could give example of that second line, but it is iconoclastic, and people dislike you violating (demonstrating their errors) there idols.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Artman
How do you know they are telling the truth?

It is kind of like learning to tie your shoes by reading a set of instructions, yet never actually having done it. Would you really know how?

This question has to do with knowledge, not wisdom. Besides, yes I'd know how, provided the book was accurately written, and I understood it correctly.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Mentat
With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

Well, I think Integral is saying what several of us have been trying to explain to you, but you don't have enough life experience yet to recognize what's being said. I say that not sarcastically, but sincerely.

What you don't know yet is how crucial experience is to knowing. I am contrasting actual knowing to believing or thinking or suspecting or feeling. Right now you are looking ahead to important things with beliefs about them, but not much (if any) experience with them.

True, just getting experience with marriage, for example, doesn't automatically mean you will become wise about marriage; but no experience with marriage definitely means no wisdom. You might have good theories about it, and you might be the sort of human being who naturally will excel at it, but that still isn't wisdom. Wisdom specifically comes from what you learn from doing something. That is why it is "earned," because you can't just sit in your room and get wise by thinking, only by doing. That doing usually has a price too because of the mistakes made, and this is why a lot of people stop doing anything new as they get older and their brains atrophy.

I will stick my neck out a little and say that wisdom is applied primarily to human interaction and personal growth, and as such the most powerful wisdom is derived from understanding human nature first, then understanding how the "world" works (i.e., the various social, legal, political, familial, etc. systems), then the nature of physical universe, and finally understanding human potentials and limitations in those realms. As you can see, there is a lot to "do" to acquire knowledge like that. Just living and studying can tell one quite a bit about the last three areas on the list, but understanding human nature, that is killer. Some of the wisest people have said, like Socrates, to "know thy self" first and the rest will follow.

So, you should be able to see why you can't possibly have much wisdom -- because you haven't had time to do much. Will you be one of the rare life adventurers with the courage to fully participate in living for the sake of pursuing widom? Or will you become another of those who fall victim to life's struggles and so gives up? Or worse still, will you be among the ranks of the most foolish of all -- those who think they are wise without having done anything?


[EDIT]

I thought I should add that, speaking for myself, I can't yet claim to be wise. It is something I aspire to, however, so I do feel it is important to understand what it is now so I actually do what it takes to make progress.

 

[Integral]

Originally posted by Mentat
With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

If it could be learned then there would be universtiy, or High school or perhaps even kindergarden classes in wisdom. That does not happen because you simply cannot teach wisdom. That is why I say it must be earned, and just as not everyone earns the same amount of money not every earns wisdom.

In education everyone can pick up a book and read read it, many learn something, fewer truly understand the material, fewer are able to apply the material, fewer still are able to process the material and then extend the knowledge to new horizons. Such is the case with life experiances, we all have them, some learn from them, fewer assimilate the knowledge are are able to incorporate it into their lifes. Wisdom is the pinnale of this process.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

I don't claim to be wise, but I think I am wiser now than 20 years ago. I have wondered if the acquisition of wisdom can be traced to a permanent chemical change in the brain. Perhaps wisdom is a unique form of memory. When I have experienced extreme difficulties - the kind that often leave one wiser - and once I dealt with the problem or situation at hand, I often feel changed; much like I felt in college after first grasping some new and challenging math or physics concept. Just like in physics, if you suffer in life, you grow. Consider an old bit of wisdom: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Sounds like chemistry to me.

 

[TENYEARS]

There have been some good points here. I have one disagreement. Is it that the young as well as some of the old do not have the ability to understand or is it the desire to understand? What is preventing the desire? Wisdom is paid in full and becomes the fabric of being.

Throw out the word desire.

If I threw a ball to you and you dropped it why? There is only one reason and one reason alone. If I say it was your ability, that would be egoism on my part and also a lie. There is only one truthful reason and anyone who honestly questions the question will have the answer to infinite questions.

 

[Fliption]

Originally posted by Mentat
What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

But you cannot taste the softdrink until you are 30 (or fifty) and there is nothing anyone can tell you that will be quite like tasting it for yourself.

 

[maximus]

hmm. an interesting analogy, but i don't think it's entirly accurate. in our scientific revolutionary information-age one can (providing they are able to pay attetion well enough) get a pretty good sense of what it feels like to be thirty. i'll admit that we don't know exactly what it's like, but we have the capacity to understand.
go ahead,give us a test of our wisdom using something that one can only acquire past the age of, say, thirty. (this should be fun!)
(or is it possible to test wisdom?,and if not than how can we ever say someone is wise?)

 

[TENYEARS]

When I was 23 I became enlightented and saw god. They say it is omni some kind of bull?. There have been gigs of dead wood on this written about it and you have probably read some about it are you now wise about it now?

To some degree I would agree with integral about people and their realization of life even though I know they can. When I was young I took nothing for granted and believed nothing. I did not say it was wrong, but I did not acknowlege it until it became an understanding and sometimes it was wrong. This and only this is being true to yourself. If you need to prove an adult wrong, it is an ego trip and it is not about knowlege. Everyone has something to give in life no matter the age. The question is are you ready to play catch? It all comes down to that and nothing else. If you treat life like a young child you will always be receptive to reality, you will learn and you will become a true human being. Until then you are playing nothing but king of the hill.

Note: Some of you have lied about your ages.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Simple (not really a) test...

In the Bible God states that "All of this universe is a part of me, but all of this universe, is not me".

Answer please. (explain the 'apparent' paradox)

(As to avoid giving it away "to all", give them a chance to figure it out too, you could PM me, your choice, choose wisely!)

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by maximus
hmm. an interesting analogy, but i don't think it's entirly accurate. in our scientific revolutionary information-age one can (providing they are able to pay attetion well enough) get a pretty good sense of what it feels like to be thirty. i'll admit that we don't know exactly what it's like, but we have the capacity to understand. Go ahead, give us a test of our wisdom using something that one can only acquire past the age of, say, thirty. (this should be fun!) (or is it possible to test wisdom?,and if not than how can we ever say someone is wise?)

I don’t believe this is a good test. A better test would be to put you in a situation that a thirty year old is handling, like say maintaining a relationship with a wife, raising two kids, holding down a job, and maybe going to graduate school at night three times a week and see how you handle that. Yet that just addresses one part of the formula for wisdom, i.e., the need for life experience, because being experienced alone doesn’t necessarily translate into wisdom.

Everyone is searching for happiness, fulfillment, contentment – and all the stuff you see people doing is either to get it or numb or hide from the misery they feel from not having it. Now we are getting close to the wisdom thing because as one acquires life experience, and attempts various avenues in hopes of achieving fulfillment, one either learns from the attempts, makes adjustments and keeps searching, or one settles along the way for something less, or one keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over, which can lead to one giving up entirely and being miserable.

In my opinion, the person who becomes wise is the one who never gives up and realizes that fulfillment in an inner thing, and then walks the path of life with an open heart and mind, determined to learn. One has to be willing to face one’s demons (and we all have them) and get to the true self that lies buried beneath all that conditioning.

Young persons haven’t lived much, so they are all talk when it comes to the meaning of life. They haven’t shown they can make it to fulfillment, and since I know very few people who have achieved it (at least deeply), there is no reason for me to believe kids when they claim to have “wisdom.” And it is bravado speaking when they say they will do it better than the adults, total naiveté. They have no idea what’s in store for them experientially and how their psyche is going to stand up. They also don’t know how their “demons” are going to interfere with all their perfect plans as life proceeds.

Of course, all that means is kids cannot have wisdom, but it doesn’t mean kids don’t have something to offer. I personally love kids, and interact with them every chance I get because their naturalness helps me to feel my own natural self. This is definitely something most adults can learn from children.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Perhaps an aspect of 'true' wisdom, is learning to become/act-as an adult, while remembering how to feel like a child.

(child-like, NOT child-ish)

That way the adult can learn faster, as a child, so naturally, does.

 

[stuffy]

21 and loving it. :)

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Well, I think Integral is saying what several of us have been trying to explain to you, but you don't have enough life experience yet to recognize what's being said. I say that not sarcastically, but sincerely.

I believe that you are sincere. However, have you considered the fact that you are basically saying one has to be wise, in order to even understand wisdom? This means that you are declaring yourself wise, which is something you, and Integral, have both said a wise man never does.

True, just getting experience with marriage, for example, doesn't automatically mean you will become wise about marriage; but no experience with marriage definitely means no wisdom. You might have good theories about it, and you might be the sort of human being who naturally will excel at it, but that still isn't wisdom. Wisdom specifically comes from what you learn from doing something.

I see. So wisdom must come from personal experience? Do you believe that this is wise counsel? Because, if so, you can't possibly relate it to me (as wisdom shouldn't be relateable, by your reasoning).

Remember, I don't mean to be irritating, or to argue. I'm debating the point simply because I disagree, and am positive that we can reach the right conclusion, through discussion (though I will not assume that either of us already has the right answer, coming into the debate).

So, you should be able to see why you can't possibly have much wisdom -- because you haven't had time to do much. Will you be one of the rare life adventurers with the courage to fully participate in living for the sake of pursuing widom? Or will you become another of those who fall victim to life's struggles and so gives up? Or worse still, will you be among the ranks of the most foolish of all -- those who think they are wise without having done anything?

These are only the consequences of your reasoning on wisdom. You still have yet to prove it. You see, it is one thing to explain the consequences of "if your reasoning right", but it is quite another to prove the actual premise of your reasoning.

[EDIT]

I thought I should add that, speaking for myself, I can't yet claim to be wise.

Then can you truly claim to understand wisdom (in light of what you've already said on this thread)?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Integral
If it could be learned then there would be universtiy, or High school or perhaps even kindergarden classes in wisdom.

Well, if Wisdom = Applied Knowledge/Applied Understanding, then that's exactly what Universities/Schools/etc are for.

That does not happen because you simply cannot teach wisdom. That is why I say it must be earned, and just as not everyone earns the same amount of money not every earns wisdom.

Surely you realize that you are teaching me an important point about wisdom, while at the same time saying that one cannot teach wisdom (you are in fact doing this in the same sentence, thus...paradox).

In education everyone can pick up a book and read read it, many learn something, fewer truly understand the material, fewer are able to apply the material, fewer still are able to process the material and then extend the knowledge to new horizons. Such is the case with life experiances, we all have them, some learn from them, fewer assimilate the knowledge are are able to incorporate it into their lifes. Wisdom is the pinnale of this process.

Thought you couldn't teach wisdom (just kiddin').

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Fliption
But you cannot taste the softdrink until you are 30 (or fifty) and there is nothing anyone can tell you that will be quite like tasting it for yourself.

Then the analogy doesn't apply to wisdom (until proven otherwise).

Let me use the example of "chess wisdom", as it seems pertinent. There are some things that are not taught in chess books, but are rather learned through experience in chess. This is considered "chess wisdom". One of the old masters (such as Kasparov or Reschevskey (my personal favorites)) would know full well that (for example), in a direct attack on the king, the material value of the pieces is not as important as the amount of pieces.

You see? This is a bit of chess wisdom, that one can still learn, even though it took someone else many years of experience to find it.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Mentat
I believe that you are sincere. However, have you considered the fact that you are basically saying one has to be wise, in order to even understand wisdom?

Yes, so?

Originally posted by Mentat
This means that you are declaring yourself wise, which is something you, and Integral, have both said a wise man never does.

Say there is a path that leads to a hidden city. You have read extensively about this path, and believe yourself to be an expert on it. Others are actually on the path, and have things to say about the way the path is walked. Because they can speak with authority about what they have learned about how the path is walked doesn't mean they claim to have reached the hidden city. But they can say that you, having only read about it, don't know anything about the path yet except theories.

Originally posted by Mentat
I see. So wisdom must come from personal experience? Do you believe that this is wise counsel? Because, if so, you can't possibly relate it to me (as wisdom shouldn't be relateable, by your reasoning).

Give it up Mentat, you are being argumentative rather than honestly trying to understand. That point makes no sense at all! You can have a concept about wisdom, which some of us have been trying to share with you, and that can serve as a guide to you when it becomes time for you to set off on your own. But if you already think you know it all, then let's not waste any more time here.

Originally posted by Mentat
Remember, I don't mean to be irritating, or to argue. I'm debating the point simply because I disagree, and am positive that we can reach the right conclusion, through discussion (though I will not assume that either of us already has the right answer, coming into the debate).

I don't think you are trying to be irritating, but I do think you want to hold on to your dream of being wise without having earned it. Going into the world with that attitude, IMO, is going to greatly increase the chances of you getting your ass kicked by realty. It is a wall that you cannot negotiate with.

Originally posted by Mentat
These are only the consequences of your reasoning on wisdom. You still have yet to prove it. You see, it is one thing to explain the consequences of "if your reasoning right", but it is quite another to prove the actual premise of your reasoning.

One doesn't "prove" wisdom! If you weren't so attached to being a precocious Socrates, you already would have accepted the obviousness of what everyone has shared with you. I have no stake in your future, so if you want to go ahead and claim wisdom . . . be my guest.

Originally posted by Mentat
Then can you truly claim to understand wisdom (in light of what you've already said on this thread)?

I understand it the best I can with the information I have, which is lot more information than you have. It is your choice to listen or not.

In defense of your position, I would agree that you should be careful who you take advice from. But I don't think you can decide merely from a debate. You have to observe someone over time, and notice how consistent he/she is. What I have done many times is to fully listen to someone's advice but decide later how much (if any) of it I will follow. The most important thing is to listen, absorb, understand . . . don't be a hardhead. There is a BIG difference between listening and understanding other perspectives and then actually going along with them. Older people can be a great resource if you treat them with respect. Say "yes" with the attitude you show them, and then learn how to filter out what doesn't fit into your goals or life.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Perhaps I can help, mentat, just because wisdom is relatable doesn't mean that the person it is related to, becomes wise, it simply means they have one more small little piece of a sort of huge puzzle.

Originally posted by Mentat

Surely you realize that you are teaching me an important point about wisdom, while at the same time saying that one cannot teach wisdom.

Teaching you a point about wisdom, is not teaching you to be wise, but assisting you in looking 'within yourself' for it.

Maybe I should stay outa this one for the rest of it...as most of what I have said, I suspect, is being ignored.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Maybe I should stay outa this one for the rest of it...as most of what I have said, I suspect, is being ignored.

I like this that you said, "Teaching you a point about wisdom, is not teaching you to be wise, but assisting you in looking 'within yourself' for it."

I think some kids have a problem accepting the role of experience in knowing because they are already determined to be wise without experience. And that problem may stem from being oppressed by adults who set themselves up as all-knowing and then treat kids as know-nothings. That sort of disrespectful behavior toward kids is very regretable, especially when it turns kids into the very know-it-alls they despise.