Originally posted by maximus
LW: i would ask you to look at mentat's question more carefully. think-what is it that you feel separates you from him or i? there must be something or we would be in this conversation. do your experiences teach you that much more than than the possibility that we might be able to understand your experiences,and feel feelings similar to what you felt?
I think Integral's suggestion of defining wisdom a little before we continue is wise .
I would separate wisdom into two types:
mundane and
profound. By “mundane” wisdom I mean that understanding of how things function one acquires from working with them for many years. For instance, both sides of my very large family knew how to build houses, and it was always assumed when it was time for one of them to have a house, they would build their own. On weekends usually several family members would go to the latest build to help, and I would go too sometimes. I was always impressed that no matter what little project I'd take on, one of the uncles could show me little secrets of how to do it faster, better, safer, etc. That was "wisdom" they'd picked up from generations of house building.
Before going on to profound wisdom, let's see if anything can be said about wisdom in general yet. You might say that you could read books, and if you were smart enough, could pick up all those little tips my uncles knew without having done any of it. I would not disagree. However, the knowledge you now have in your head from reading is a different type of knowledge than that learned from actually doing. Let me characterize that difference with the terms
richness,
certainty, and
wholeness.
What the intellect does when it understands is to create a model, a mental construct that approximates the aspect of reality it’s trying to represent. It is a mere shell, or a sort of image one maintains. So if, for instance, you had lived in the desert all your life, and people visiting you described their vacation on Samoa, you might have a wonderful vision of it complete with pictures of palm trees you’d seen in magazines, lovely island girls, coconuts, beaches, waves, sunsets on the ocean . . . But then one day you get to go, and even if your vision was perfect, now the quality of richness is added because the flat intellectual concept you had is replaced by a multi-dimensional experience. It becomes part of your memory, and even seeps into your being by shaping your outlook and desires. Also, because you have experienced it, you know for certain such a place exists; it isn’t just a dream or concept, it has been confirmed by your own personal experience and all your memories are now actual, not imagined. Finally, there is what the island is like as a whole which, when one goes there and is part of it, one sees how all the “parts” fit together.
So, a general distinction we might make between intellectual and experiential learning is that the former lacks substance while the latter is full. When its just mental, all the spaces between concepts are empty, there is no real certainty and no real confidence; whatever is there is paper thin. In contrast, that rich understanding, certainty and holistic view amounts to a kind of power that builds in one the more one experiences – you
know, you just don’t “think” so. With such a full and powerful understanding as a foundation, one is much more capable of seeing new possibilities and successfully achieving them by knowing were to fit a “part” into the whole, or how to adjust the whole without messing up all the parts. But the mental expert hasn’t really tested all his theories, and so both misses creative opportunities and fails to recognize where something is going to fall short.
So how about profound wisdom. This is a tough one because there doesn’t seem to be a lot of agreement about what’s profound. Some even believe nothing is profound, that everything is mundane. But if there is something(s) which is profound, the same rules apply as with the mundane: one needs experience of the profound to acquire true wisdom. Because it is so much more difficult to experience that, the debates about the profound typically are dominated by mental experts. My personal view is that profound wisdom is predicated on the experience of our true nature that lives at the core of our being. To have that experience, one has to turn one’s attention inward, and learn to feel this core. With enough experience, one might eventually get intimate enough with that inner fullness to say something meaningful about it. Sadly, most people are perfectly willing to preach, write books, and give advice based on studying what others have realized. It might be wisdom, but it isn’t one’s own, and so it lacks the power and specific applicability that comes from actually knowing for oneself.
To at last answer your question, this "separation" you and Mentat are talking about is only about the difference in experiential knowledge between older and younger persons. Most of what youth have to say about mundane or profound is theory. Even if it is insightful theory, it is still untested. Those of us who have lived awhile, and learned, know to be very cautious with theoretical experts. They
think they know, but they don't
know they know.
The other separation we've discussed is that artificially created by ignorant adults who just want to be on top of anyone they can. You will see as you get older that such people create separation any chance they get, not just with kids. As I have said, I do not believe in condescending, it is in fact one of the few things that gets my anger going every time. If you have something to say, if it makes sense and doesn't run contrary to my experience, then I will accept it as reasonalbe no matter how old you are, or educated, or what your IQ is, or any other of the qualities people use to condescend.
But if you start to act wise without sufficient personal experience to do so, then I am going to resist that too.
).