How Old are You? - Revisiting an Old PFs Thread

[maximus]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
The "lofty" position I assume is that of a person who has lived, worked, educated himself and survived a lot longer than a 14 year old who thinks he should be considered equal in wisdom when he can't even take care of himself without mommy and daddy's help.
...You don't know much of anything yet, you just think you know . . . boring. [zz)]
...If you think a computer can be wise, you really are clueless.
...Continuing to insist just proves how little you know about things.

what little wisdom i have tells me that such pointlessly aggressive and mean statements are immature and not really called for. i think we should all take a deep breath and try to approach this subject with a little less anger and resentment.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by maximus
what little wisdom i have tells me that such pointlessly aggressive and mean statements are immature and not really called for. i think we should all take a deep breath and try to approach this subject with a little less anger and resentment.

Sorry Maximus . . . I just came back to delete my post but it was too late, you'd quoted me. None of what I said was directed at you however, it was my frustration with Mentat.

Still, I should just drop out of this conversation rather than get mad.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
The "lofty" position I assume is that of a person who has lived, worked, educated himself and survived a lot longer than a 14 year old who thinks he should be considered equal in wisdom when he can't even take care of himself without mommy and daddy's help.

You obviously don't know anything about me, but that's not your fault. I would simply ask that you not make any more assumptions.

You don't know much of anything yet, you just think you know . . . boring. [zz)]

If you think a computer can be wise, you really are clueless.

Well, now that we've come to blind insults, without any attempt at reasoning, I suppose the conversation will get nowhere, as you apparently haven't the slightest idea why you believe the way you do, you just do, and you think everyone else should believe the same way too.

Convince you? Do you know how many words I've written, and how many hours I spent thinking about this trying to help you understand it?

That's what the problem is.[/color] You've been trying to make me understand, when you should have been proving your side of the debate. There's a huge difference. I could have spent all of this time trying to "help you understand" my side of the debate, but that doesn't get anyone anywhere, because it starts from the assumption that if someone disagrees with you, there must be some misunderstanding. Don't you see how closed-minded that is? Haven't you seen how ugly it gets with Alexander in the Philosophy Forum? It got ugly because he was convinced that, if someone disagreed with him, they must not understand, and needed to be "educated".

Mentat, you aren't going to accept anything on this subject because you are having too much fun playing here with the adults pretending to be wise. How wise is it to prefer the image of wisdom over the real thing?

And how wise is it to assume that the fact that your matter has decayed for a longer time than mine, and your health is deteriorating faster than mine, and you've had more time to make more mistakes than I have (and more mistakes than I will probably ever make) makes you wiser?

Without experience you ain't gettin' wisdom!

Without listening to my side of the argument, you ain't gettin' past your original assumption.

And you will never convince anybody that you have it who has lived awhile either. Continuing to insist just proves how little you know about things.

And what are you doing? Are you not insisting that you have wisdom - and not just that, but that you have wisdom that far surpasses mine?

There is one way you could be very wise right now, and that is to be humble. But you can't even master that first step

Neither can you! In this kind of debate, I become a mirror of your attitude. If you'll look back, you'll notice that I didn't even begin to close my mind to your repetitious parroting of your opinion, unil long after you had closed your mind to my reasoning (which is probably how you started out here anyway).

so I don't know why you think you are going to make it any further.

More importantly, I don't think you even recognize your need to "go further", and will thus never attain the wisdom that you think is owed you by the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Sorry Maximus . . . I just came back to delete my post but it was too late, you'd quoted me. None of what I said was directed at you however, it was my frustration with Mentat.

Still, I should just drop out of this conversation rather than get mad.

nor was my statement necesarily directed at you. we all are getting a little frusterated and should just calm down. (and i really do appresiate the post)

 

[Zargawee]

I'm almost 17 ( I will be after less than 3 mounths )

 

[jonnylane]

21

i don't want to be any older, either.

If anyone knows a good anti ageing cream or lotion (that actually stops you ageing) please post it here!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by jonnylane
21

i don't want to be any older, either.

If anyone knows a good anti ageing cream or lotion (that actually stops you ageing) please post it here!

Sunscreen; SPF15.

 

[Another God]

That stops you aging!??! Wow, my search is over it would seem. And here I thought that it just protected your skin from the harmful effects of UV radiation!

 

[plus]

Yes, I think that it reduces effects upon the skin which have the effect of making people look older than what they are. It does not stop aging, or even reduce it - it just makes it look like the rate of aging is slowed.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Another God
That stops you aging!??! Wow, my search is over it would seem. And here I thought that it just protected your skin from the harmful effects of UV radiation!

Actually, yes; at least in part. See any dermatological site for information about the damage done to your skin due to exposure to the sun. The effects UV are part of what we perceive as the skin aging.

Edit: whoops. You wanted a complete anti-aging formula. In that case, along with the external use of sunscreen, just take a tablespoon of Cod Liver Oil daily that will do it!

 

[jonnylane]

all of this is great, but i need to make it so that i never have another birthday.

and so that i can still steal road signs and feel ok anout it.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by mentat

That's what the problem is. You've been trying to make me understand, when you should have been proving your side of the debate.

Mentat, the only person who can prove anything to you, is you, but only when you acccept the evidence.

But, the only evidence, that will ever be available to you, is when/after YOU (have) pass(ed) the time.

The only person who will ever be able to prove this to you, is you!

You will end up proving to yourself, most likeley, that is of course, if you truly do find/are wise/dom.

All anyone else can ever do is attempt to impart their own understanding, there is no 'proving' anything, other then 'just subjective attestament' to it.

But I agree, that you do seem rather educated for the age you profess, as does maximus, and you can be intellectually frustrating to some people, some time, so can I, it's not always that difficult, it's not always a critisizm, cause as I have seen, you recognise it too, so that helps everyone.

I'm still 47 though. That does mean something.

(and some months more, now)

 

[Ethereal Dream]

I am 10 and a half years old...

and completely 'full of wisdom'. I will be no wiser by the time I turn 11 because the passage of time does not bring wisdom.

 

[jonnylane]

not really true

you can't gain wisdom without the passage of time. If time stood still would you ever become more wise?

I know this because I am older (and therefore more wise)

hee hee

 

[Another God]

I think wisdom is gained with time, but I also think some people are inherently more wise than others, and so are able to gain more wisdom over that time...so perhaps this is a matter of defining what we are talking about. I guess I believe there is something which we are born as which isn't gained over time...and that is our ability to open our mind to critically analyse new concepts and accept or deny them appropriately. Some might call that wisdom...

Anyway, as for Mr. Robin Parsons post to Mentat: Mentat, my only advice on this topic for you is the same advice I have for everyone else. Stop trying to think of it as your duty to educate everyone else, and start thinking of it as your duty to educate yourself. What you do is you explain your belief/idea as best as you can to other people, and then let them try to convince you otherwise.

Don't worry if they don't believe you, just make sure you understand (and tell them if it is appropriate) why you don't believe them. (you don't have to make up your mind on the spot. Just give their position reasonable consideration. They do have their own reasons for believing it after all...)

 

[Integral]

"Wisdom" is:
quote:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : INSIGHT c : good sense : JUDGMENT



"Wise" means:
quote:

Oxford Dictionary
1 having, showing, or dictated by wisdom. 2 prudent, sensible. 3 having knowledge. 4 suggestive of wisdom

Does a human being exist which does not fulfill some facet of these definitions?

Wisdom is one of those concepts which cannot be captured by a simple dictionary definition. Had I known, Mentat, that you needed a dictionary definition this conversation would not have taken place. I assumed that you had a deeper knowledge, as you have claimed. Clearly this is not the case. You will find, that as you age, you will adopt your own working definition of such words, which give such concepts a deeper personal meaning then can be found in a dictionary. I guess you are not there yet.

Wisdom is one of those things that is different for different stages of life, what is wise for a 5 year old may not be so for a 50 yr old. Youth is for learning, until you have raised children of your own you can not appreciate the rate at which infants are capable of learning, while adults can still learn and should never stop learning, children are blank slates waiting to soak up information. For you to assume that you have wisdom equal to that of an adult is not really displaying the wisdom a 15yr old needs, in fact just the opposite, such a judgment is foolish. Wisdom, at your stage of life it to grasp at every source of knowledge available. For you, this means listening to both good and bad information. Indeed, you need to be learning to filter information but be careful in filtering out the wheat with the chafe. How without some experience can you know the difference? Do you expect to get this from a textbook? Or perhaps you should take the word of someone? Do you see the dilemma? If you automatically choose not to listen to adults simply because you have convinced yourself of your personal wisdom you are making a big mistake. Far from being wise, this is the action of a fool.

It is not clear to me what it is you wish me to prove? Do you want me to prove that what I write is indeed what I belief? Do you think that these matters of philosophy need a mathematical style proof to validate them? Why is it that I am expected to prove what I say while you are not? What proof of your beliefs have you provided? Once again you make statements that are not indicative of wisdom.

 

[maximus]

in a final effort to create a mutual understanding i will restate what i believe to be true in this subject:

i am willing to say that some wisdom can only be gained through time (no, not even through time-through certain experience), but that the basic (and also maybe most useful/profound) requires nothing to be gained execpt an observant mind that is willing to learn. i think it is perfectly possible for a person to become wise at a younge age, but that generally your wisdom increases with age. (not true for all cases) (yet to be proven) (patent pending)

 

[BoulderHead]

in a final effort to create a mutual understanding i will restate what i believe to be true in this subject:

Good luck !

i am willing to say that some wisdom can only be gained through time (no, not even through time-through certain experience),…

Experience requires time.

…but that the basic (and also maybe most useful/profound) requires nothing to be gained execpt an observant mind that is willing to learn…

Learning requires time.

…i think it is perfectly possible for a person to become wise at a younge age, but that generally your wisdom increases with age. (not true for all cases) (yet to be proven) (patent pending)

Well, I think I can find the most agreement in this last statement made, but I want to add a few more of my own comments to this thread too;
I do not believe that anyone is born wise. If someone here believes that newborns and infants are wise, I think we will just have to agree to disagree. And why is this so?
The way I see it, the odds of someone being wise are much increased if that person is old (obviously there are old idiots, just look at me , so I think it should be understood that nothing is written in stone here). Nevertheless, T I M E, and everything that happens over the course of same, obviously must have a place in the wisdom equation. Having a keen intellect is an advantage that can no doubt compensate for a lack of age, but I don’t think you can rightly throw out what holds true in general owing to a small number of exceptions. Maybe the exceptions to the rule will grow exceedingly wise by the TIME they are old, but it will nevertheless take time. Wisdom, knowledge, whateverthehellelseyouwanttorelateitto, all require time. You didn’t pop out of the fox-hole wise and as smart as you may be it will still require the passage of time for you to learn.

The rule stands.

Most young people don’t know a hot rock from a hole in the ground. It’s nothing personal whatsoever; they just haven’t lived long enough yet. In another decade or two, you will likely look back and see yourself in a completely different light then how you imagine yourself now. You may recognize mistakes made in your youth that were out of your control due to your immaturity. Age can bring with it a vantage point, like climbing to the top of a hill, from which you can look downward and backward and see things that you might have missed along the way. But, it takes time to climb.

I think Mentat may feel looked down upon and relegated to an automatic ‘inferior’ status by older people, and it is true that young people are often dismissed in such a way. However, it is by actually taking the time to speak with and getting to know individuals that we are able to determine whether they have anything of consequence to say or not. I might have suspicions that I wouldn’t find a young person worthy of giving sage advice, but if what came out of their mouth seemed worthwhile I would listen and consider it…I would also begin to lower my ‘bubble-gummer’ shield a bit the next time we spoke.

However wise a person might be today, they are likely to be even wiser tomorrow.
-BH

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Experience requires time.

Learning requires time.

but how much time? could one, if one were paying attention well enough, be wise after, say, fifteen years of experience?

However wise a person might be today, they are likely to be even wiser tomorrow.
-BH

agreed.

 

[BoulderHead]

but how much time?

The more, the better.

could one, if one were paying attention well enough, be wise after, say, fifteen years of experience?

Not as broad a wisdom as at thirty.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Not as broad a wisdom as at thirty.

ahhh, but by what standards? could someone at 15 have equal to greater wisdom than another at thirty, regardless of whether this person himself would be wiser when he turns 30?

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by maximus
ahhh, but by what standards? could someone at 15 have equal to greater wisdom than another at thirty, regardless of whether this person himself would be wiser when he turns 30?

He could be wiser in some areas and less wise in others. He may, for instance, have never been exposed to all that the 30 year old had been exposed to. In any event, it still took fifteen years to get were this individual was, so I would figure that a 15 year old would tend to be more wise than a 10 year old, wouldn't you?

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
He could be wiser in some areas and less wise in others. He may, for instance, have never been exposed to all that the 30 year old had been exposed to.

this is probably true, but still, you agree that it is possible to be wiser in maybe (using a previously introduced term) more profound areas?

In any event, it still took fifteen years to get were this individual was, so I would figure that a 15 year old would tend to be more wise than a 10 year old, wouldn't you?

generally this is true, as generally a thirty year old is wiser than a fifteen year old. but i'd say it is still possible for the 10 year old to be wiser. (supposing he was even more intelligent and willing to learn than the 15 year old, in which case he is also wiser than the 30 year old person)

but i would agree with your earlier statement that there is a limit to the age at which wisdom can possibly be acquired. (at least infancy )

 

[BoulderHead]

They say it's a wise child...

...that knows its own father.

(it's easier to know who your mom is, especially come breast feeding time)

...but still, you agree that it is possible to be wiser in maybe (using a previously introduced term) more profound areas?

I have no problem with agreeing to that, though we each have our own subjective ideas regarding what is considered 'profound'.

generally this is true, as generally a thirty year old is wiser than a fifteen year old. but i'd say it is still possible for the 10 year old to be wiser. (supposing he was even more intelligent and willing to learn than the 15 year old, in which case he is also wiser than the 30 year old person)

I wouldn't rule anything out, but I would say that it is quite unlikely nevertheless. Imagine if people lived to be 10,000 years old. Were I on a search for a wise man, I would seek out an old fogey in his nine-thousands rather than a young person in his teens.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
I have no problem with agreeing to that, though we each have our own subjective ideas regarding what is considered 'profound'.

agreed.

I wouldn't rule anything out, but I would say that it is quite unlikely nevertheless. Imagine if people lived to be 10,000 years old. Were I on a search for a wise man, I would seek out an old fogey in his nine-thousands rather than a young person in his teens.

well there you have it, we agree with everything we've said. generally, age will increase with age, but that does not rule out the possiblility of wisdom at a younger age. (though i dount LW Sleeth will agree with this)

 

[BoulderHead]

Great, now let's see if we can disagree.

Well, let's just say there is wise, and then there is Wise. I think it is important to consider the context in which the word is used. There are people I have known who flocked to a certain young guru. I never investigated the matter, so I don't know what all the hoopla was about. What I do know is that a good number of adults thought this kid was full of wisdom, and maybe he was, though I tended to believe at the time that the adults were likely full of something other than wisdom.

 

[maximus]

for the record, can you specify the difference between wise and Wise?

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
There are people I have known who flocked to a certain young guru. I never investigated the matter, so I don't know what all the hoopla was about. What I do know is that a good number of adults thought this kid was full of wisdom, and maybe he was, though I tended to believe at the time that the adults were likely full of something other than wisdom.

and who is this young guru?

 

[BoulderHead]

I don't remember his name, but it was back in the 1970's and I think he was from india. I'll see what I can dig up.

 

[maximus]

well, before you do that, do you have an answer for my above question. (above my above question, i mean)