How to avoid killing birds with wind turbines

[Loren Booda]

Paint the blades in such a manner that the birds feel threatened by the resulting (optical illusory) image.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I really suspect the problem is there's no way for the birds to learn. Those that fly too close end up dead before they can learn not to do that again.

Don't most birds stay fairly close to the ground? Is there a minimum height that could be considered?

 

[Danger]

(I recommend you not to call me woman, right! )

Got it, man... no problem.

Don't most birds stay fairly close to the ground?

That's pretty much when they're landing, taking off, or sleeping. Otherwise, they're fairly airborne.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Putting Wind Power's Effect On Birds In Perspective

Electricity generated from renewable energy resources is an environmentally-preferred alternative to conventionally produced electricity from fossil fuel and nuclear power plants. Many people believe that wind turbines should be part of the solution to a healthier environment, not part of the problem.

Over the past fifteen years, a number of reports have appeared in the popular press about wind turbines killing birds. Some writers have gone so far as to dub wind generators "raptor-matics" and "cuisinarts of the sky". Unfortunately, some of these articles have been used as "evidence" to stop the construction of a wind generator in someone's back yard. The reports of dead birds create a dilemma. Do wind generators really kill birds? If so, how serious is the problem? [continued]

http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html

 

[Boffin]

Ivan, thanks for the report link about bird kills and wind turbines. I read it. Interesting to see actual statistics. But I think there is another futuristic aspect to this issue that needs to be addressed that is not covered by present statistics. Where are the birds supposed to fly in the future? Dams practically destroyed certain fish stocks. Farms have crowed out most natural animals.

Birds are actually very necessary to control the insect population. They are also pretty, and interesting to have around. Crowd out the birds and they likely will die off for lack of habitat. I think I would rather watch birds than windmills.

Then there is another related problem. Windmills everywhere could destroy the movie business. Movie producers rely on vast desolate natural areas especially to do period movies.

Wind turbines could also destroy the tourism industry. I am an avid outdoors person. I love to hike, bicycle, or kayak in natural scenery. Wind turbines could destroy this. I like to see wind turbines now and then, but to have them in your face everywhere would be annoying.

I've said my piece, now what do you think?

 

[brewnog]

I've said my piece, now what do you think?

I think there's rather a lot of hyperbole in there! Done on a large scale, it's unlikely that wind farms would be intentionally put in areas which attract tourists by being picturesque. The areas which would provide most power are generally offshore installations, where the prevailing wind conditions are not nearly as variable as on land. I don't think there's any danger of wind farms becoming so widespread that they would inhibit movie shootings, and if they got anywhere near this degree of prevalence, the impact on the movie industry would pale into insignificance compared with the amount of renewable energy we would be making use of. I'm not saying that I believe them to be a complete solution to our current energy problems (I don't), but I don't think the issues you've highlighted are really stopping the progress of wind farm installations.

In any case, I think they're beautiful, and have often stopped to stand and look at them whirring away over a sunset at sea...

 

[FredGarvin]

Did he just express concern for the movie industry? Come on...power production vs. another crappy Hollywood movie. Hmmm...

I do agree that studies on bird populations need to be conducted. Not only for the insect issue, but the impact on things such as migratory routes. There are plenty of techniques available for stopping bird impacts.

 

[beluluk]

I don't know much about the real thing... but... when i think about it..., not blocking the wind, but blocking the birds... how about a gridlines (perhaps from metal wires) sorrounding the wind turbine? (added cost of course)

If this solution to be taken, then make sure the grids make a considerable distance so the wind suction at the outside part of the grids wouldn't be so massive. And also, i know that birds love to perch/stand on a windy place. Perhaps a branch-like stick would be perfect with the grids. I imagine the birds making friends with the wind turbine... LOVELYY :)

ow yeah,... another "perhaps"..., perhaps we could make the wind turbines' blades not deadly for birds. perhaps by putting some soft, light and elastic fibers around the blades.

 

[Danger]

I suspect, beluluk, that the grid wires would be harder to see, and more damaging if hit, than the blades themselves.
As for the padding, maybe the blades could have some kind of moulded foamy leading edges, but it might be tough to find a substance that would stand up to the elements and still be soft. Also, it can't mess up the aerodynamics of the blades.

 

[beluluk]

I suspect, beluluk, that the grid wires would be harder to see, and more damaging if hit, than the blades themselves.

i don't know about that, and i couldn't try installing grid wires on those wind turbines because I'm faraway from them (about half of the Earth circular length ).

As for the padding, maybe the blades could have some kind of moulded foamy leading edges, but it might be tough to find a substance that would stand up to the elements and still be soft. Also, it can't mess up the aerodynamics of the blades.

I did and do hope some virtuous scientists would work on this. My location and my education do not permit me to help. I wish i could help more.

and yet... perhaps there would be another solution.

 

[Danger]

You can help just by continuing to care, and think about the problem. There's no reason that you have to be in the geographical vicinity of the windmills to apply your efforts. Talk it over with some friends, get them involved in trying to figure out a solution, and keep passing the word. Although, as Ivan pointed out, it's not really a major problem, there's certainly no harm in trying to alleviate it.

 

[beluluk]

Thanks Danger

You can help just by continuing to care, and think about the problem. There's no reason that you have to be in the geographical vicinity of the windmills to apply your efforts. Talk it over with some friends, get them involved in trying to figure out a solution, and keep passing the word.

Thanks... sure i will.

Although, as Ivan pointed out, it's not really a major problem, there's certainly no harm in trying to alleviate it.

Chinese proverb says "It's easier to stop the river flow from the streams" means "It's easier to handle problem when it still a small problem" or something like that. I just don't want we to have a massive problem like "green house effect" arise from our "ordinary" daily life.:shy:

 

[Intuitive]

Stories about bird kills caused by wind turbines are common. I really don't see why this is a problem. It seems to me that something fairly simple could be done; lights, sound, optical effects using colored paints...something. Does anyone know much about this?

If you are referring to ground level Wind Turbines for harnessing Wind then by adding a wave guide to the wind turbine with a metal net screen over the entrance that has to small of holes for birds to get through might help dramatically.

If you were referring about Motor/Engine driven Wind Turbines then kindly disregard this post.

 

[Genecks]

Smarter birds?

That would be a result of keeping the wind turbines out.
IF in fact it kills them, I'm not sure of this.

 

[Danger]

Inutitive, your approach would be the logical way to go in a theoretical sense, but I'm not sure if you realize the scale of these things. That would be an incredible amount of mass being added to the structure. I suppose that you could consider such things to be mounted on the ground in front of the turbine, but they'd still be huge. There might be too much disruption of airflow to allow the turbines to work properly.

 

[DM]

Inutitive, your approach would be the logical way to go in a theoretical sense, but I'm not sure if you realize the scale of these things. That would be an incredible amount of mass being added to the structure. I suppose that you could consider such things to be mounted on the ground in front of the turbine, but they'd still be huge. There might be too much disruption of airflow to allow the turbines to work properly.

But is nonetheless being considered, isn't it?

 

[Danger]

I really don't know. Other than here in PF, I've never read anything about it.

 

[quantumcarl]

Use alternatives

Stories about bird kills caused by wind turbines are common. I really don't see why this is a problem. It seems to me that something fairly simple could be done; lights, sound, optical effects using colored paints...something. Does anyone know much about this?

Pincer Creek (Alberta, Canada) is a 600 acre wind farm that has proven inefficent due to variant wind speeds where the brakes on the wind generators are being over used and reducing the generating capacity of the generators.

The whole farm will have to be moved to another local which will negate any of the energy savings it generated over its 10 yr(?) history. This will be a problem for most established wind farms as climate changes force changes in human behaviour and development.

Alternatives to wind power will save the birds being killed by the rotors of the wind powered electricity generators.

Solar panels have the potential to become a primary source of electricity.

Nuclear power may or may not serve as a source depending on lessening its effects on the environment (hot water, radiation etc.).

Hydrogen fuel cell technology holds a highly potential promise. The separation of Hydrogen from other compounds poses the question of where to get the energy but, according to global warming specialists, the sun is increasing in temperature as we speak... thus, an increasing source of energy via solar cells to facilitate the production of hydrogen.

Last count of Bald Eagles gathering around one river here was around 3000 last fall. And Fuel Cell Technology was invented here (Ballard Energy Systems).

 

[Boffin]

Alternatives to wind power will save the birds being killed by the rotors of the wind powered electricity generators.

I agree. It would be a shame if the whole world was cluttered with windmills, tens of thousands of miles of high tension lines spread out all over the place connecting them, trees cut down for the right of ways, natural views destroyed, bird populations reduced etc. only to realize later that other forms of power are superior. I think wind power is very appropriate for certain isolated locations. The problem with wind power is that a large area of land must be farmed.

Much more solar energy can be collected per area than with wind, though I understand that the land underneath wind farms can be used for other things. Solar energy is also more regular than wind power. If fusion power might work some day and have little radiation issues, this would alter our environment the least.

Let's at least analyze the big picture and figure out what makes sense to push for. Sure if the other alternatives don't work, maybe we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment because there is no other way. Killing of birds by wind turbines is just one aspect wind power.

That's the way I see it, what do you think?

 

[quantumcarl]

I agree. It would be a shame if the whole world was cluttered with windmills, tens of thousands of miles of high tension lines spread out all over the place connecting them, trees cut down for the right of ways, natural views destroyed, bird populations reduced etc. only to realize later that other forms of power are superior. I think wind power is very appropriate for certain isolated locations. The problem with wind power is that a large area of land must be farmed.
Much more solar energy can be collected per area than with wind, though I understand that the land underneath wind farms can be used for other things. Solar energy is also more regular than wind power. If fusion power might work some day and have little radiation issues, this would alter our environment the least.
Let's at least analyze the big picture and figure out what makes sense to push for. Sure if the other alternatives don't work, maybe we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment because there is no other way. Killing of birds by wind turbines is just one aspect wind power.
That's the way I see it, what do you think?

I agree up to one point you made where

maybe we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment because there is no other way.

If we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment we are not assured of surviving very long and potentially crashing and burning within the next 40 years.

It's our blind ambitions and blind tolerance of the short-term energy solutions that have us relying on a resource that will barely last 150 years in total. (fossil fuels).

Initially fossil fuels were a wind-fall... now and with a bit more time... oil will be the "fall" of western civilization. We are running out of options and we need an overlap between fossil fuels and their alternatives now. That's why wind power has enjoyed some investment. But, short-sighted investments lead to short-lived gains and long-suffered follies... put the thinking-cap on humanity!

 

[Danger]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In case anyone missed it, this does seem to be a key point from the article linked

...Since the mid-1980's, a number of research organizations, universities, and consultants have conducted studies on avian mortality due to wind turbines. In the U.S., these studies were prompted because of the relatively high number of raptors that were found dead at the Altamont Pass Wind Farms near San Francisco.

After dozens of studies spanning nearly two decades, we now know that the Altamont Pass situation is unusual in the U.S. The high raptor mortality there was the result of a convergence of factors, some of which were due to the bad siting in the local ecosystem while others were due to the wind turbine and tower technology used at the time...

http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html

So it seems that good planning esp wrt location may solve most problems. But if it is found that a particular wind farm has a problem with bird kills, apparently the number of kills locally can be significant, so alternative solutions could still be needed. I'm not sure what "technology used at the time" made things worse, but it might help to know what it was and how it contributed to the problem.

 

[Boffin]

So it seems that good planning esp wrt location may solve most problems. But if it is found that a particular wind farm has a problem with bird kills, apparently the number of kills locally can be significant, so alternative solutions could still be needed.

I guess we should get more or less back on the original point, being how to solve the bird issue with wind farms. What are the rules in the USA, Canada, and other parts of the world regarding location of wind farms?

Does one have to go through an environmental study first? And if the wind farm would result in a major disruption of the bird population, would such an application be rejected typically? Would such a wind farm have to be dismantled once built?

It seems no one did such a study in the Almont Pass wind farm? Of course the outcome of any study is related to what the law makers regard as negative or what is legal.

 

[quantumcarl]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

Yeah, its too bad. The CDN PM diverted money from the sale of govt owned stocks (2 billion$) in PetroCan (oil) to investments in wind gererated electricity.

Save the birds and dress up the wind turbines like giant scarecrows. Otherwise they're potentially worse than DDT.

Or, use the many alternatives.

 

[scottschopp]

to everyone who has posted a message about altamont wind farm

hi, my name is scott schopp, I work for a company that has come up with a solution for the wildlife that has died at altamont pass wind farm and every other wind farm in the world. We have come up with a new design for wind turbines that causes no damage to the areas animal, windenergygroupinc.com is the web address , and i want to start to place new turbines in altamont pass wind farm asap. There is no reason that one bird should die in an attempt, to help the worlds energy problem. We are a new company and our turbine is the same size and is more effecient that current units. It would fit perfectly in the area, the problem is i can't get the proper contact info to whoever is in charge of the altamont wind farm. need help, please email me. thanks scott schopp

 

[triden]

Hey Scott, those turbines on that website you posted are quite neat. I could see the low RPM nature of the turbine being a lot safer for nearby birds.

 

[scottschopp]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

go to scott schopp , on page six birds and wind turbines discession

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Scottschopp, it sure doesn't look like you have much effective turbine area.

Late edit: Guestimating from your website, it appears that for about the same price [similar requirements for the structure], a standard turbine would have a sweeping radius at least three times greater than your system, which translates to about ten times the swept area and ten times the power for the same cost.

 

[scottschopp]

Scottschopp, it sure doesn't look like you have much effective turbine area.

Late edit: Guestimating from your website, it appears that for about the same price [similar requirements for the structure], a standard turbine would have a sweeping radius at least three times greater than your system, which translates to about ten times the swept area and ten times the power for the same cost.

it does not have anything to do with sweep area, it has to do with killawatts created this turbine generates 200-250 kw, for its size, that is what it is supposed to do. Sweep area is stone age thinking, sorry.

 

[russ_watters]

it does not have anything to do with sweep area, it has to do with killawatts created this turbine generates 200-250 kw, for its size, that is what it is supposed to do. Sweep area is stone age thinking, sorry.

No, sweeping area is conservation of energy. In order to capture energy from wind, you have to capture wind. So a turbine with 10x the area (and the same efficiency) will produce 10x the power.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No, sweeping area is conservation of energy. In order to capture energy from wind, you have to capture wind. So a turbine with 10x the area (and the same efficiency) will produce 10x the power.

I would also expect significantly higher efficiency from a standard turbine.

 

[scottschopp]

one of the reasons that the blade has to turn so slow is that their is a gearbox that can not withstand a fast moving propeller, these older turbines have to shut down when the wid reaches a certain (high) speed so they are limited to margins of speed. The horrizontal direct drive shaft does not need a gearbox and can add additional generaters to the units while in use, so the faster the wind, the more energy. the lenth of the blade is not an issue because by the time of one rotation of standard turbine the horizontal unit will have already turned several times whether it is 3x, 7x, it depends on the wind speed. you also have to take into account down time when you are talking about effeciency, of the turbine , it is not only how long the blade is but i understand your perspective, this is a new technology, trust me they are better and more effecient.

 

[scottschopp]

keep in mind that turbines are graded on killawats produced not on how long the blades are, you would be blown away on how many of the older turbines, are broken, and don't turn effeciently any more.

 

[henxan]

scottschopp "killawatts" :D..

Wind power for generating electricity is just a big joke. Enormous environmental impact. You have to build roads, construct these monsters, maintainance. And its expencive as hell. Not to mention eye-pollutant.

So if you want to stop killing birds, why not stop building wind power plants? :D

 

[Ivan Seeking]

one of the reasons that the blade has to turn so slow is that their is a gearbox that can not withstand a fast moving propeller, these older turbines have to shut down when the wid reaches a certain (high) speed so they are limited to margins of speed. The horrizontal direct drive shaft does not need a gearbox and can add additional generaters to the units while in use, so the faster the wind, the more energy. the lenth of the blade is not an issue because by the time of one rotation of standard turbine the horizontal unit will have already turned several times whether it is 3x, 7x, it depends on the wind speed. you also have to take into account down time when you are talking about effeciency, of the turbine , it is not only how long the blade is but i understand your perspective, this is a new technology, trust me they are better and more effecient.

There may be advantages to the design, but you can't get around conservation of energy. Less area means less power. This is not a point that is debatable.

Trust me. This is elementary. And before you argue with engineers and scientists, you might learn how to spell kilowatt.

Variable pitch blades can now compensate for high wind velocities.

 

[henxan]

there was pun intended, was it not? Killawatts - watts pr. killed bird lol..

 

[scottschopp]

scottschopp "killawatts" :D..

Wind power for generating electricity is just a big joke. Enormous environmental impact. You have to build roads, construct these monsters, maintainance. And its expencive as hell. Not to mention eye-pollutant.

So if you want to stop killing birds, why not stop building wind power plants? :D

hey jack, denmark in 2007 has 20% of their electricity generated from wind power, how is that a joke. in the next two years hopes to have it up to 50%. I live in la and if you saw the smog when you fly into burbank on a plan like i have many times, you would not be saying that it is a joke.

 

[henxan]

Wouldn't the windturbines slow down the air and worsen the smog problem? No wind to blow it away ;)

 

[scottschopp]

There may be advantages to the design, but you can't get around conservation of energy. Less area means less power. This is not a point that is debatable.

Trust me. This is elementary. And before you argue with engineers and scientists, you might learn how to spell kilowatt.

Variable pitch blades can now compensate for high wind velocities.

first of all it is the point I am trying to make not my spelling, the variable pitch blade is a great advantage and when it happens in high winds it is called the yah of the blade. I am not a scientist or an enginier, you are deviating from the harm of the wild life that is happening at this and other wind farms.

 

[scottschopp]

Wouldn't the windturbines slow down the air and worsen the smog problem? No wind to blow it away ;)

la doesn't get wind, that pollutant in the air is from having to rely on other sources of energy. Everybody is losing focus on my original topic how to help the birds, because wind energy is here to stay

 

[henxan]

Well. I'm not sure how to explain this. Wind power demands wind, so I think you should forget about wind power in LA.. Sorry..

 

[scottschopp]

i am tring to discuess the altamont pass area, not la.

 

[russ_watters]

I would also expect significantly higher efficiency from a standard turbine.

I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt on that, but yes - those turbines just don't look very efficient to me.

Scottschopp, is there an operational wind farm anywhere that uses these turbines?

 

[rcgldr]

What would be the issue with a very large sphere made of chicken wire and supports surrounding the main propellor, other than cost? It wouldn't significantly affect the wind flow, and would prevent birds from getting to the propellors.

 

[henxan]

jeff reid:
Lol. pretty nice idea :D.. To prevent birds to get into the propellers one would need very small meshes. Probably 10cm in diameter. And you would need rigid wires, framing. And it would be ugly. Most certainly slow down the wind.

Is this really a big problem? Wouldnt birds who survive give more offspring likely to survive? survival of the fittest, or smartest in this case :)

 

[P.Ramesh]

hi, my name is scott schopp, I work for a company that has come up with a solution for the wildlife that has died at altamont pass wind farm and every other wind farm in the world. We have come up with a new design for wind turbines that causes no damage to the areas animal, windenergygroupinc.com is the web address , and i want to start to place new turbines in altamont pass wind farm asap. There is no reason that one bird should die in an attempt, to help the worlds energy problem. We are a new company and our turbine is the same size and is more effecient that current units. It would fit perfectly in the area, the problem is i can't get the proper contact info to whoever is in charge of the altamont wind farm. need help, please email me. thanks scott schopp

Can you Pl tell me the site name or any Picture of that model?

 

[Saladsamurai]

jeff reid:

Is this really a big problem? Wouldnt birds who survive give more offspring likely to survive? survival of the fittest, or smartest in this case :)

Right, because evolutionary effects take place over the course of days.

 

[henxan]

saladsamurai:

The rate at which mutations take place are connected to the time until fertility; have you ever considered that birds may live shorter than humans?

 

[FredGarvin]

I agree that the chicken wire idea is a no-go. Not only would it structurally not even support its own weight, it would distort the inlet flow.

I would venture a guess that visual means would be a possibility. Aside from taping old pie pans to the blades, what about reflectors and lights of some kind?

 

[Loren Booda]

What about an array of windsocks with fabric capillaries that generate power from their fluid pressure - or mechanical orientation - changing with the wind, but allow winged creatures to glance or pass through relatively unharmed?