How to avoid killing birds with wind turbines

[Danger]

You can help just by continuing to care, and think about the problem. There's no reason that you have to be in the geographical vicinity of the windmills to apply your efforts. Talk it over with some friends, get them involved in trying to figure out a solution, and keep passing the word. Although, as Ivan pointed out, it's not really a major problem, there's certainly no harm in trying to alleviate it.

 

[beluluk]

Thanks Danger

You can help just by continuing to care, and think about the problem. There's no reason that you have to be in the geographical vicinity of the windmills to apply your efforts. Talk it over with some friends, get them involved in trying to figure out a solution, and keep passing the word.

Thanks... sure i will.

Although, as Ivan pointed out, it's not really a major problem, there's certainly no harm in trying to alleviate it.

Chinese proverb says "It's easier to stop the river flow from the streams" means "It's easier to handle problem when it still a small problem" or something like that. I just don't want we to have a massive problem like "green house effect" arise from our "ordinary" daily life.:shy:

 

[Intuitive]

Stories about bird kills caused by wind turbines are common. I really don't see why this is a problem. It seems to me that something fairly simple could be done; lights, sound, optical effects using colored paints...something. Does anyone know much about this?

If you are referring to ground level Wind Turbines for harnessing Wind then by adding a wave guide to the wind turbine with a metal net screen over the entrance that has to small of holes for birds to get through might help dramatically.

If you were referring about Motor/Engine driven Wind Turbines then kindly disregard this post.

 

[Genecks]

Smarter birds?

That would be a result of keeping the wind turbines out.
IF in fact it kills them, I'm not sure of this.

 

[Danger]

Inutitive, your approach would be the logical way to go in a theoretical sense, but I'm not sure if you realize the scale of these things. That would be an incredible amount of mass being added to the structure. I suppose that you could consider such things to be mounted on the ground in front of the turbine, but they'd still be huge. There might be too much disruption of airflow to allow the turbines to work properly.

 

[DM]

Inutitive, your approach would be the logical way to go in a theoretical sense, but I'm not sure if you realize the scale of these things. That would be an incredible amount of mass being added to the structure. I suppose that you could consider such things to be mounted on the ground in front of the turbine, but they'd still be huge. There might be too much disruption of airflow to allow the turbines to work properly.

But is nonetheless being considered, isn't it?

 

[Danger]

I really don't know. Other than here in PF, I've never read anything about it.

 

[quantumcarl]

Use alternatives

Stories about bird kills caused by wind turbines are common. I really don't see why this is a problem. It seems to me that something fairly simple could be done; lights, sound, optical effects using colored paints...something. Does anyone know much about this?

Pincer Creek (Alberta, Canada) is a 600 acre wind farm that has proven inefficent due to variant wind speeds where the brakes on the wind generators are being over used and reducing the generating capacity of the generators.

The whole farm will have to be moved to another local which will negate any of the energy savings it generated over its 10 yr(?) history. This will be a problem for most established wind farms as climate changes force changes in human behaviour and development.

Alternatives to wind power will save the birds being killed by the rotors of the wind powered electricity generators.

Solar panels have the potential to become a primary source of electricity.

Nuclear power may or may not serve as a source depending on lessening its effects on the environment (hot water, radiation etc.).

Hydrogen fuel cell technology holds a highly potential promise. The separation of Hydrogen from other compounds poses the question of where to get the energy but, according to global warming specialists, the sun is increasing in temperature as we speak... thus, an increasing source of energy via solar cells to facilitate the production of hydrogen.

Last count of Bald Eagles gathering around one river here was around 3000 last fall. And Fuel Cell Technology was invented here (Ballard Energy Systems).

 

[Boffin]

Alternatives to wind power will save the birds being killed by the rotors of the wind powered electricity generators.

I agree. It would be a shame if the whole world was cluttered with windmills, tens of thousands of miles of high tension lines spread out all over the place connecting them, trees cut down for the right of ways, natural views destroyed, bird populations reduced etc. only to realize later that other forms of power are superior. I think wind power is very appropriate for certain isolated locations. The problem with wind power is that a large area of land must be farmed.

Much more solar energy can be collected per area than with wind, though I understand that the land underneath wind farms can be used for other things. Solar energy is also more regular than wind power. If fusion power might work some day and have little radiation issues, this would alter our environment the least.

Let's at least analyze the big picture and figure out what makes sense to push for. Sure if the other alternatives don't work, maybe we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment because there is no other way. Killing of birds by wind turbines is just one aspect wind power.

That's the way I see it, what do you think?

 

[quantumcarl]

I agree. It would be a shame if the whole world was cluttered with windmills, tens of thousands of miles of high tension lines spread out all over the place connecting them, trees cut down for the right of ways, natural views destroyed, bird populations reduced etc. only to realize later that other forms of power are superior. I think wind power is very appropriate for certain isolated locations. The problem with wind power is that a large area of land must be farmed.
Much more solar energy can be collected per area than with wind, though I understand that the land underneath wind farms can be used for other things. Solar energy is also more regular than wind power. If fusion power might work some day and have little radiation issues, this would alter our environment the least.
Let's at least analyze the big picture and figure out what makes sense to push for. Sure if the other alternatives don't work, maybe we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment because there is no other way. Killing of birds by wind turbines is just one aspect wind power.
That's the way I see it, what do you think?

I agree up to one point you made where

maybe we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment because there is no other way.

If we have to live with a certain destruction of the environment we are not assured of surviving very long and potentially crashing and burning within the next 40 years.

It's our blind ambitions and blind tolerance of the short-term energy solutions that have us relying on a resource that will barely last 150 years in total. (fossil fuels).

Initially fossil fuels were a wind-fall... now and with a bit more time... oil will be the "fall" of western civilization. We are running out of options and we need an overlap between fossil fuels and their alternatives now. That's why wind power has enjoyed some investment. But, short-sighted investments lead to short-lived gains and long-suffered follies... put the thinking-cap on humanity!

 

[Danger]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In case anyone missed it, this does seem to be a key point from the article linked

...Since the mid-1980's, a number of research organizations, universities, and consultants have conducted studies on avian mortality due to wind turbines. In the U.S., these studies were prompted because of the relatively high number of raptors that were found dead at the Altamont Pass Wind Farms near San Francisco.

After dozens of studies spanning nearly two decades, we now know that the Altamont Pass situation is unusual in the U.S. The high raptor mortality there was the result of a convergence of factors, some of which were due to the bad siting in the local ecosystem while others were due to the wind turbine and tower technology used at the time...

http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html

So it seems that good planning esp wrt location may solve most problems. But if it is found that a particular wind farm has a problem with bird kills, apparently the number of kills locally can be significant, so alternative solutions could still be needed. I'm not sure what "technology used at the time" made things worse, but it might help to know what it was and how it contributed to the problem.

 

[Boffin]

So it seems that good planning esp wrt location may solve most problems. But if it is found that a particular wind farm has a problem with bird kills, apparently the number of kills locally can be significant, so alternative solutions could still be needed.

I guess we should get more or less back on the original point, being how to solve the bird issue with wind farms. What are the rules in the USA, Canada, and other parts of the world regarding location of wind farms?

Does one have to go through an environmental study first? And if the wind farm would result in a major disruption of the bird population, would such an application be rejected typically? Would such a wind farm have to be dismantled once built?

It seems no one did such a study in the Almont Pass wind farm? Of course the outcome of any study is related to what the law makers regard as negative or what is legal.

 

[quantumcarl]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

Yeah, its too bad. The CDN PM diverted money from the sale of govt owned stocks (2 billion$) in PetroCan (oil) to investments in wind gererated electricity.

Save the birds and dress up the wind turbines like giant scarecrows. Otherwise they're potentially worse than DDT.

Or, use the many alternatives.

 

[scottschopp]

to everyone who has posted a message about altamont wind farm

hi, my name is scott schopp, I work for a company that has come up with a solution for the wildlife that has died at altamont pass wind farm and every other wind farm in the world. We have come up with a new design for wind turbines that causes no damage to the areas animal, windenergygroupinc.com is the web address , and i want to start to place new turbines in altamont pass wind farm asap. There is no reason that one bird should die in an attempt, to help the worlds energy problem. We are a new company and our turbine is the same size and is more effecient that current units. It would fit perfectly in the area, the problem is i can't get the proper contact info to whoever is in charge of the altamont wind farm. need help, please email me. thanks scott schopp

 

[triden]

Hey Scott, those turbines on that website you posted are quite neat. I could see the low RPM nature of the turbine being a lot safer for nearby birds.

 

[scottschopp]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

go to scott schopp , on page six birds and wind turbines discession

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Scottschopp, it sure doesn't look like you have much effective turbine area.

Late edit: Guestimating from your website, it appears that for about the same price [similar requirements for the structure], a standard turbine would have a sweeping radius at least three times greater than your system, which translates to about ten times the swept area and ten times the power for the same cost.

 

[scottschopp]

Scottschopp, it sure doesn't look like you have much effective turbine area.

Late edit: Guestimating from your website, it appears that for about the same price [similar requirements for the structure], a standard turbine would have a sweeping radius at least three times greater than your system, which translates to about ten times the swept area and ten times the power for the same cost.

it does not have anything to do with sweep area, it has to do with killawatts created this turbine generates 200-250 kw, for its size, that is what it is supposed to do. Sweep area is stone age thinking, sorry.

 

[russ_watters]

it does not have anything to do with sweep area, it has to do with killawatts created this turbine generates 200-250 kw, for its size, that is what it is supposed to do. Sweep area is stone age thinking, sorry.

No, sweeping area is conservation of energy. In order to capture energy from wind, you have to capture wind. So a turbine with 10x the area (and the same efficiency) will produce 10x the power.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No, sweeping area is conservation of energy. In order to capture energy from wind, you have to capture wind. So a turbine with 10x the area (and the same efficiency) will produce 10x the power.

I would also expect significantly higher efficiency from a standard turbine.

 

[scottschopp]

one of the reasons that the blade has to turn so slow is that their is a gearbox that can not withstand a fast moving propeller, these older turbines have to shut down when the wid reaches a certain (high) speed so they are limited to margins of speed. The horrizontal direct drive shaft does not need a gearbox and can add additional generaters to the units while in use, so the faster the wind, the more energy. the lenth of the blade is not an issue because by the time of one rotation of standard turbine the horizontal unit will have already turned several times whether it is 3x, 7x, it depends on the wind speed. you also have to take into account down time when you are talking about effeciency, of the turbine , it is not only how long the blade is but i understand your perspective, this is a new technology, trust me they are better and more effecient.

 

[scottschopp]

keep in mind that turbines are graded on killawats produced not on how long the blades are, you would be blown away on how many of the older turbines, are broken, and don't turn effeciently any more.

 

[henxan]

scottschopp "killawatts" :D..

Wind power for generating electricity is just a big joke. Enormous environmental impact. You have to build roads, construct these monsters, maintenance. And its expencive as hell. Not to mention eye-pollutant.

So if you want to stop killing birds, why not stop building wind power plants? :D

 

[Ivan Seeking]

one of the reasons that the blade has to turn so slow is that their is a gearbox that can not withstand a fast moving propeller, these older turbines have to shut down when the wid reaches a certain (high) speed so they are limited to margins of speed. The horrizontal direct drive shaft does not need a gearbox and can add additional generaters to the units while in use, so the faster the wind, the more energy. the lenth of the blade is not an issue because by the time of one rotation of standard turbine the horizontal unit will have already turned several times whether it is 3x, 7x, it depends on the wind speed. you also have to take into account down time when you are talking about effeciency, of the turbine , it is not only how long the blade is but i understand your perspective, this is a new technology, trust me they are better and more effecient.

There may be advantages to the design, but you can't get around conservation of energy. Less area means less power. This is not a point that is debatable.

Trust me. This is elementary. And before you argue with engineers and scientists, you might learn how to spell kilowatt.

Variable pitch blades can now compensate for high wind velocities.

 

[henxan]

there was pun intended, was it not? Killawatts - watts pr. killed bird lol..

 

[scottschopp]

scottschopp "killawatts" :D..

Wind power for generating electricity is just a big joke. Enormous environmental impact. You have to build roads, construct these monsters, maintenance. And its expencive as hell. Not to mention eye-pollutant.

So if you want to stop killing birds, why not stop building wind power plants? :D

hey jack, denmark in 2007 has 20% of their electricity generated from wind power, how is that a joke. in the next two years hopes to have it up to 50%. I live in la and if you saw the smog when you fly into burbank on a plan like i have many times, you would not be saying that it is a joke.

 

[henxan]

Wouldn't the windturbines slow down the air and worsen the smog problem? No wind to blow it away ;)

 

[scottschopp]

There may be advantages to the design, but you can't get around conservation of energy. Less area means less power. This is not a point that is debatable.

Trust me. This is elementary. And before you argue with engineers and scientists, you might learn how to spell kilowatt.

Variable pitch blades can now compensate for high wind velocities.

first of all it is the point I am trying to make not my spelling, the variable pitch blade is a great advantage and when it happens in high winds it is called the yah of the blade. I am not a scientist or an enginier, you are deviating from the harm of the wild life that is happening at this and other wind farms.

 

[scottschopp]

Wouldn't the windturbines slow down the air and worsen the smog problem? No wind to blow it away ;)

la doesn't get wind, that pollutant in the air is from having to rely on other sources of energy. Everybody is losing focus on my original topic how to help the birds, because wind energy is here to stay