How to find scale factor at recombination?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on determining the scale factor at recombination in cosmology, specifically relating the temperature of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) at recombination to its current temperature. Participants explore the implications of different eras in the universe's evolution, particularly the matter-dominated and radiation-dominated eras, and how these relate to the scale factor and temperature.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the temperature of photons at recombination was approximately 3000 K, while the current temperature of the CMB is about 2.725 K, raising the question of how to extrapolate the scale factor from these values.
  • Another participant suggests that the redshift at recombination is about 1090, leading to a proposed scale factor of a(recomb.) = 1/1090, and explains the relationship between temperature and scale factor as T ∝ 1/a.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the application of the redshift equation and the relationship between temperature and scale factor, particularly in the context of the matter-dominated era.
  • There is a clarification that in the matter-dominated era, density scales as a^-3, while in the radiation-dominated era, density scales as a^-4, which some participants debate regarding its implications for the scale factor calculation.
  • One participant emphasizes that the energy density of radiation is proportional to a^-4, which is a key point in understanding the relationship between temperature and scale factor.
  • Another participant acknowledges a conceptual misunderstanding regarding the energy density of radiation and its dependence on the scale factor.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement on the relationships between temperature, scale factor, and the characteristics of different cosmological eras. There is no consensus on the exact method to derive the scale factor at recombination, and some participants remain confused about the application of certain concepts.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in their understanding of how temperature values can be applied in the redshift equation, and there are unresolved questions regarding the implications of the matter-dominated and radiation-dominated eras on the calculations.

eherrtelle59
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If we know that the temperature of photons was apprx. 3000 K at recombination and the temperature of the CMB is apprx. 2.725 K today, how can we extrapolate the value of the scale factor at recombination?

I know that recombination happens at a matter-dominated era, such that the density goes a^-3 ****(not a^-4) and that at this era a(t) goes t^2/3

But this doesn't tell me how a(t) is related to temperature...
 
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1+z is usually given as about 1090, at recombination.
So that would make a(recomb.) = 1/1090

The temperature of the ancient light goes as 1/a

You can think of it as the number of photons per unit volume going as 1/a3
and the energy of an individual photon going as 1/a (as its wavelength lengthens).
So the energy density of the ancient light goes as 1/a4
And you know the fourth power law of temperature.
 
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Using the redshift equation occurred to me, but according to the problem I should be using T=3000 and T=2.725

So, you're saying T goes 1/a. This is for relativistic fluids at "ancient times"?

I'm not quite sure I understand your explanation for the derivation of this...

In any sense, if I use T=3000, then a is around 3*10^-3 ?
 
athen/anow = 2.725/3000.
 
@BillSaltLake

I'm afraid there's something I'm missing conceptually. Why can we conclude that we can put temperature values into the redshift equation as you have done?
 
I should also point out I'm confused as to how this relates to the matter-dominated era.

To be clear, my estimate for the scale factor at recombination should take two things into account
1) matter dominated era such that denisty goes a^-4 and
2) T of CMB is about 2.725
 
eherrtelle59 said:
1) matter dominated era such that denisty goes a^-4

In the matter-dominated era, density goes as a^-3; in the radiation-dominated era, density goes as a^-4.
 
Or do you mean just the energy density of radiation, which goes as a^-4 in all eras.
 
@George

Sorry George, I meant at a^-3 for matter dominated, as recombination occurs after the radiation-dominated era.
 
  • #10
1)The energy density of a blackbody photon gas is proportional to T^4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_gas;

2) the energy density of radiation is proportional to a^-4, even in the matter-dominated era;

3) therefore, T is proportional to 1/a.
 
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  • #11
Aha!

2) was the conceptual issue. In any era, the energy density of relativistic matter goes a^-4.

Thanks George! (and the others who answered!)
 
  • #12
Here's a simple explanation offered earlier for George's point 2)
marcus said:
...
You can think of it as the number of photons per unit volume going as 1/a3
and the energy of an individual photon going as 1/a (as its wavelength lengthens).
So the energy density of the ancient light goes as 1/a4
...
 

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