How was the damping scale of the CMB calculated?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Quarkly
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the damping scale of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB), specifically focusing on the mathematical derivation of the damping scale, denoted as ##k_D##. Participants explore the integral formulation presented in Wayne Hu's lecture notes, addressing various aspects of the calculation, including the behavior of functions involved and the limits of integration.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the steps leading to the damping scale ##k_D##, questioning why certain limits are discarded in the derivation.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on the limits of the integral, suggesting that it may be defined over the region [-infinity, +infinity] or otherwise.
  • A different participant proposes that the integral should be considered as an indefinite integral, while also noting that both ##R## and ##\dot\tau## are functions of ##\eta##.
  • Some participants discuss the behavior of the function ##f(\eta)## at the limits of ##R##, interpreting the implications of these limits in terms of baryon-photon momentum ratios.
  • There is a discussion about the units of the ##\eta## axis, with one participant confirming that it is measured in seconds and relating it to the age of the universe.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the relationship of the integral to values of ##\eta## beyond the present time, suggesting that the integral might not hold for values much greater than ##\eta_0##.
  • One participant requests a detailed derivation of the author's analytical solution, indicating a desire for a step-by-step explanation rather than opinions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express differing views on the interpretation of the integral and the behavior of the functions involved. There is no consensus on the derivation process or the assumptions made regarding the limits of integration.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the dependence of the integral on the functions ##R## and ##\dot\tau##, and there are unresolved questions regarding the limits of integration and the implications of the behavior of the functions at various points.

Quarkly
Messages
7
Reaction score
1
TL;DR
I ran across this equation in some lecture notes and I'm not able to follow the derivation.
I'm reading through the lecture notes of Wayne Hu regarding the Damping Scale of the CMB. He give the following steps to calculating the damping scale, ##k_D##:$$k_D^{-2}=\int \frac{1}{6(1+R)}\left( \frac {16}{15}+ \frac{R^2}{(1+R)}\right)\frac{1}{\dot\tau} d\eta$$Limiting forms:$$\lim\limits_{R \to 0}k_D^{-2}= \frac{1}{6}\frac{16}{15}\int \frac{1}{\dot\tau} d\eta$$
$$\lim\limits_{R \to \infty}k_D^{-2}= \frac{1}{6}\int \frac{1}{\dot\tau} d\eta$$and finally$$k_D=\frac{\sqrt{6}}{\sqrt{\eta \dot\tau^{-1}}}$$I see roughly what he's doing, but my math is rusty. Could anyone explain in greater detail how he arrived at ##k_D##? For example, why did he discard the limit as ##{R \to 0}##? Why is only ##{R \to \infty}## used in the final formula? Why was he able to extract everything but ##\frac{1}{\dot\tau}## from the integral (since R is also a function of ##\eta##)?

While function ##f(\eta)=\frac{1}{6(1+R(\eta))}\left( \frac {16}{15}+ \frac{R(\eta)^2}{(1+R(\eta))}\right)## is relatively constant, it does change with ##\eta## and looks like this:
Graph1.png

and the function ##g(\eta)=\frac{1}{\dot\tau(\eta)}## looks like this:
Graph2.png

The bottom axis is ##\eta##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Delta2
Physics news on Phys.org
Hello.
I would like to know more information to elaborate. Integral in your post means integral over the region [-infinity, +infinity] or any other ?
 
mitochan said:
Hello.
I would like to know more information to elaborate. Integral in your post means integral over the region [-infinity, +infinity] or any other ?
There are several sources for this equation. Some write it as an indefinite integral, others write it as $$k_D^{-2}(\eta)=\int_0^{\eta} \frac{1}{6(1+R)}\left( \frac {16}{15}+ \frac{R^2}{(1+R)}\right)\frac{1}{\dot\tau} d\eta$$I believe this is the more rigorous form. Both R and ##\dot\tau## are functions of ##\eta##. I believe the author of these notes may have been trying to solve the integral in parts as ##R[0]## and ##\dot\tau[0]## are undefined.
 
Thanks for your explanation.

I would like to confirm my understanding on your graphs.

--As R is relative baryon-photon momentum ratio,
f(0)=1/6 * 16/15 where R=0 no baryon existed and f(+infinity)= 1/6 where R=+infinity all photon momentum will be reduced to zero by expansion of universe.
Your first graph read f(0)=1.066 and f(+infinity)=1 so it seems graph of 6f with coefficient 6 multiplied.

-- Is unit of base ##\eta## axis second? If so around 5 E+17 points on the graph is where we are.
 
mitochan said:
--As R is relative baryon-photon momentum ratio,
f(0)=1/6 * 16/15 where R=0 no baryon existed and f(+infinity)= 1/6 where R=+infinity all photon momentum will be reduced to zero by expansion of universe.
Your first graph read f(0)=1.066 and f(+infinity)=1 so it seems graph of 6f with coefficient 6 multiplied.

-- Is unit of base ##\eta## axis second? If so around 5 E+17 points on the graph is where we are.
Many apologies. You are correct. The graph for ##f(\eta)=\frac{1}{6(1+R(\eta))}\left( \frac {16}{15}+ \frac{R(\eta)^2}{(1+R(\eta))}\right)## looks like this (I forgot the factor of 1/6 in the original plot):
Graph1.png

Not sure what you're asking in the second question. The bottom axis is conformal time and the units are seconds. And, yes, ##3.5 \times 10^{18} s## is ##\eta_0##, the present time (according to the model).

Also, the form is correct, but the units were wrong on the optical depth plot. Here are the correct units in km. (though, this should be immaterial for the answer).

Graph2.png
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your clarification.

With assumption and observation that

--The author refers value of ##\eta## around ##\eta_0##, the age of universe for us,
13.8 billion year = 4.35 E+17 second,

--The second graph curve in the region ##\eta [0,\eta_0]## read g(##\eta##) be small positive constant (not zero, I expect) , and

--due to decline in the first graph curve in the region ##[0,\eta_0]## integral coefficient seems a little bit less (or more?) than 1/6 but the difference is negligible in our approximation,

I think the integral would become 1/6 ##g(\eta)\eta##. I do not think this relation hold for any value of ##\eta##, much more than ##\eta_0##, for an example.
 
Your answer is little more than an opinion. I was looking for a derivation likely involving integration by parts, but something that took me step-by-step from the first equation to the authors analytical solution (or a disproof, if the author was wrong).
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
6K
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K