How was the symmetry used here? ("QFT and the SM" by Schwartz)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of symmetry in the derivation of energy-momentum conservation in the context of quantum field theory (QFT) and the Standard Model (SM). Participants explore how the assumption of symmetry is embedded in various steps of the derivation, particularly focusing on the Euler-Lagrange (E-L) equations and the implications of space-time translations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the assumption of symmetry is implicit in the use of the E-L equations, as treating the field ##\phi(x)## as a non-dynamical fixed background would violate the symmetry.
  • Others argue that the E-L equation indicates that the action does not depend on ##\phi(x)##, which implies independence on ##x## and thus reflects the symmetry.
  • A participant mentions that the symmetry validates the equation relating to the variation of the Lagrangian being a total derivative, which is crucial for the variation of action to vanish.
  • Some participants believe that the symmetry is specifically used in step 3 of the derivation, where the change in the Lagrangian under translation symmetry is characterized as a total derivative.
  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the subtleties of these symmetries and notes that many textbooks fail to address these complexities adequately.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the assumption of symmetry plays a critical role in the derivation, particularly in relation to the E-L equations and the treatment of the Lagrangian. However, there is no consensus on the exact step where this assumption is utilized, as different participants highlight various steps in the derivation.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion involves nuanced technical arguments and assumptions that may not be fully addressed in standard texts, indicating a potential gap in understanding among practitioners.

Hill
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TL;DR
In this derivation of energy-momentum conservation, on what step the symmetry of space-time translation was used?
Here are steps.
Consider shift of field ##\phi## by a constant 4-vector ##\xi##:
(1) ##\phi(x) \rightarrow \phi(x+\xi)=\phi(x)+\xi^{\nu} \partial_{\nu} \phi(x) + ... ##
The infinitesimal transformation,
(2) ##\frac {\delta \phi} {\delta \xi^{\nu}} = \partial_{\nu} \phi##
and
(3) ##\frac {\delta \mathcal L} {\delta \xi^{\nu}} = \partial_{\nu} \mathcal L##
Using the E-L equations, the variation of Lagrangian is
(4) ##\frac {\delta \mathcal L[\phi, \partial_{\mu} \phi]} {\delta \xi^{\nu}}=\partial_{\mu} (\frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \frac {\delta \phi} {\delta \xi^{\nu}})##
Using (2) and (3),
(5) ##\partial_{\nu} \mathcal L =\partial_{\mu} (\frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \partial_{\nu} \phi)##
or equivalently
(6) ##\partial_{\mu} (\frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \partial_{\nu} \phi - g_{\mu \nu} \mathcal L) = 0##
The conclusion is,
"The four symmetries have produced four Noether currents, one for each ##\nu##:
##\mathcal T_{\mu \nu} = \frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \partial_{\nu} \phi - g_{\mu \nu} \mathcal L##
all of which are conserved: ##\partial_{\mu} \mathcal T_{\mu \nu}=0##."

My question: where in this derivation the assumption was used that the transformation is a symmetry?
 
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The assumption of symmetry is hidden in the use of EL equation. If you did not use EL equation, that would mean that ##\phi(x)## is treated as a non-dynamical fixed background, the explicit ##x##-dependence of which would violate the symmetry. Indeed, the EL equation can be written as
$$\frac{\delta A}{\delta \phi(x)}=0$$
where ##A## is the action, which can be interpreted as a statement that you only consider such ##\phi(x)## for which the action does "not depend" on ##\phi(x)##. Since the dependence on ##x## arises only from dependence on ##\phi(x)##, this means that EL equation expresses also independence on ##x##, which is nothing but the symmetry.
 
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Demystifier said:
The assumption of symmetry is hidden in the use of EL equation. If you did not use EL equation, that would mean that ##\phi(x)## is treated as a non-dynamical fixed background, the explicit ##x##-dependence of which would violate the symmetry. Indeed, the EL equation can be written as
$$\frac{\delta A}{\delta \phi(x)}=0$$
where ##A## is the action, which can be interpreted as a statement that you only consider such ##\phi(x)## for which the action does "not depend" on ##\phi(x)##. Since the dependence on ##x## arises only from dependence on ##\phi(x)##, this means that EL equation expresses also independence on ##x##, which is nothing but the symmetry.
Thank you.
I think also that the symmetry validates the equation (3), because this equation makes the variation of Lagrangian a total derivative, and this makes the variation of action vanish: $$\delta A = \int d^4 x \delta \mathcal L = \delta \xi^{\nu} \int d^4x \partial_{\nu} \mathcal L = 0$$ IOW, without the symmetry, we can't go from (4) to (5).
 
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Hill said:
TL;DR Summary: In this derivation of energy-momentum conservation, on what step the symmetry of space-time translation was used?

Here are steps.
Consider shift of field ##\phi## by a constant 4-vector ##\xi##:
(1) ##\phi(x) \rightarrow \phi(x+\xi)=\phi(x)+\xi^{\nu} \partial_{\nu} \phi(x) + ... ##
The infinitesimal transformation,
(2) ##\frac {\delta \phi} {\delta \xi^{\nu}} = \partial_{\nu} \phi##
and
(3) ##\frac {\delta \mathcal L} {\delta \xi^{\nu}} = \partial_{\nu} \mathcal L##
Using the E-L equations, the variation of Lagrangian is
(4) ##\frac {\delta \mathcal L[\phi, \partial_{\mu} \phi]} {\delta \xi^{\nu}}=\partial_{\mu} (\frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \frac {\delta \phi} {\delta \xi^{\nu}})##
Using (2) and (3),
(5) ##\partial_{\nu} \mathcal L =\partial_{\mu} (\frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \partial_{\nu} \phi)##
or equivalently
(6) ##\partial_{\mu} (\frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \partial_{\nu} \phi - g_{\mu \nu} \mathcal L) = 0##
The conclusion is,
"The four symmetries have produced four Noether currents, one for each ##\nu##:
##\mathcal T_{\mu \nu} = \frac {\partial \mathcal L}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \phi)} \partial_{\nu} \phi - g_{\mu \nu} \mathcal L##
all of which are conserved: ##\partial_{\mu} \mathcal T_{\mu \nu}=0##."

My question: where in this derivation the assumption was used that the transformation is a symmetry?
I believe that the symmetry is used in step 3. Under the translation symmetry the Lagrangian change is a total derivative. I think this is essentially what @Demystifier is saying.

Incidentally, i wrote a long blog post on this derivation but omitted this question. Thanks for bringing it up.
 
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jbergman said:
I believe that the symmetry is used in step 3. Under the translation symmetry the Lagrangian change is a total derivative. I think this is essentially what @Demystifier is saying.

Incidentally, i wrote a long blog post on this derivation but omitted this question. Thanks for bringing it up.
Thank you. That was my understanding also, in the post #3.
 
jbergman said:
I believe that the symmetry is used in step 3. Under the translation symmetry the Lagrangian change is a total derivative. I think this is essentially what @Demystifier is saying.

Incidentally, i wrote a long blog post on this derivation but omitted this question. Thanks for bringing it up.
Step 3 is just saying the Lagrangian is a scalar (density) under translations, right?

I also find this stuff treacherous, and many textbooks completely miss these subtleties and make it look easy. My confusion for a long time was that these symmetries are derived "on shell", but then EL=0 for any variation of the field. And I know from experience that you can even confuse post docs working on string theory with this stuff.😋
 

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