Hypersurface Definition Confusion in General Relativity

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition and properties of hypersurfaces in the context of general relativity. Participants explore the implications of the mathematical conditions required for defining hypersurfaces, particularly focusing on the behavior of partial derivatives of functions that describe these surfaces.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the definition of hypersurfaces, questioning how a function can be constant while having a non-zero partial differential.
  • Another participant clarifies that the requirement is for the partial derivative to be non-zero everywhere, explaining that the subset of points with the same function value defines a hypersurface, and the gradient is perpendicular to the contour line.
  • A third participant suggests that the strict requirement of the partial derivative being zero everywhere is too rigid, noting that it suffices for it to be non-zero at the hypersurface defined by the constant value.
  • This participant provides an example of a sphere in Euclidean space, illustrating how a level surface can be defined by a function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the strictness of the requirement for the partial derivative; some argue for a more flexible interpretation while others uphold the original definition. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these definitions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential limitations in understanding the definitions of hypersurfaces, particularly regarding the assumptions about the behavior of partial derivatives and the implications for manifold foliations.

tm33333
Messages
4
Reaction score
2
In my notes on general relativity, hypersurfaces are defined as in the image. What confuses me is that if f=constant, surely the partial differential is going to be zero? I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but surely the function can't be equal to a constant and its partial differential be non-zero?

thanks.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2021-05-11 at 21.05.25.png
    Screenshot 2021-05-11 at 21.05.25.png
    11.2 KB · Views: 154
Physics news on Phys.org
It's requiring that ##\partial_af## be non-zero everywhere, then saying the subset of points with the same value of ##f## define a hypersurface. Analogously, you can define a function ##f(x,y)## on a two dimensional Euclidean plane and the lines of constant ##f## are the contour lines (1d analogues to 3d hypersurfaces). The gradient on a contour isn't zero, it is perpendicular to the contour line.

(Note that geographical contour lines can close, but a closed contour line encloses at least one point where the gradient is zero, so the definition of a hypersurface excludes this possibility).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: tm33333
Well, the requirement that ##\partial_a f=0## everywhere is a bit strict. It is sufficient that it is non-zero at the hypersurface being described by the particular constant. (Although you will need the full requirement if you intend to make a foliation of the manifold.)

As an example, consider the sphere in standard Euclidean space with ##f = x^2 + y^2 + z^2##. For ##R>0##, ##f = R^2## defines a sphere of radius ##R##, which is a level surface of ##f## in ##\mathbb R^3##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: tm33333 and Ibix
Thank you both. That definitely clarifies things!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Orodruin
Moderator's note: Thread title edited to be more descriptive of the specific question.
 
tm33333 said:
Thank you both. That definitely clarifies things!
I guess you can say that they broke it down for you. :wink:
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
5K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 78 ·
3
Replies
78
Views
6K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K