I don't like Dark Matter and Dark Energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the existence of dark matter and dark energy, exploring alternative theories of gravitation and spacetime that do not rely on these concepts to explain phenomena such as galaxy rotation and cosmic expansion. Participants express skepticism towards the conventional understanding and seek unconventional explanations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the necessity of dark matter and dark energy, likening them to the luminiferous ether and expressing a desire for theories that do not rely on invisible entities.
  • One participant mentions Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) as an alternative that adjusts Newton's laws but notes challenges in reconciling it with gravitational lensing measurements.
  • Another participant references the relativistic MOND theory TeVeS and mentions John W. Moffatt's modified gravity theory (MOG) as potential alternatives.
  • There is a discussion about scalar-tensor theories that attempt to reconcile gravitation with quantum mechanics, suggesting that scalar fields could influence gravitational interactions.
  • Some participants argue that dark matter and dark energy are not merely imaginary, citing evidence such as gravitational effects and historical context regarding the discovery of atoms.
  • One participant expresses a preference for exploring fringe theories for creative writing, indicating a desire for imaginative rather than strictly scientific explanations.
  • Another participant critiques the notion of hypocrisy in seeking alternative theories while dismissing established ones, suggesting a lack of logical consistency.
  • There is mention of historical milestones in the study of dark matter, including Zwicky's initial theorization and Rubin's later support for cold dark matter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a range of views, with some expressing skepticism towards dark matter and dark energy while others defend their validity based on existing evidence. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the necessity or existence of alternative theories.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various theories and historical developments without reaching a definitive conclusion about the validity of dark matter and dark energy or the proposed alternatives. The discussion reflects ongoing debates in cosmology and theoretical physics.

  • #31
sylas said:
They do? In what sense? Serious question. I'm surprised to see this comment, but you're a guy who is worth listening to, and asking for clarification.

Cheers -- sylas

they would ask one firstly to DEFINE the centre of the universe.
 
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  • #32
malawi_glenn, I think (or rather, I hope) Brantoc was just using appeal to ridicule in that post rather than posting ridiculous nonsense.

Brantoc: If that garbage you posted in post #22 was sophomoric hyperbole, it was an appeal to ridicule: a logical fallacy. We do not condone the use of fallacies at this site. Read the rules. If that garbage was serious, we do not condone claptrap nonsense at this site. Read the rules. Either way, please desist.
 
  • #33
D H said:
malawi_glenn, I think (or rather, I hope) Brantoc was just using appeal to ridicule in that post rather than posting ridiculous nonsense.


I also hope so, but it is really hard to get a felling for the tone in forums, therefore one should avoid irony etc.

Of course one should follow the experts, I would never questioning my doctor if he does things that all other doctors do - that is the point by having expertise.
 
  • #34
malawi_glenn said:
they would ask one firstly to DEFINE the centre of the universe.

That I can agree with, and in fact that's what I'm doing. What I'm having trouble with is the statement "the vast majority of scientists within cosmology agree that there is centre of the universe". I don't know what you mean by that word, so I'm asking.

My understanding is that there is almost universal agreement on an "origin"... in the sense that world lines go back a finite proper time to conditions of extreme density in which classical relativistic physics breaks down and goes to a singularity. I don't think of that as a "centre", myself; and I'm wondering if you meant this, or something else?

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #35
sylas said:
That I can agree with, and in fact that's what I'm doing. What I'm having trouble with is the statement "the vast majority of scientists within cosmology agree that there is centre of the universe". I don't know what you mean by that word, so I'm asking.

My understanding is that there is almost universal agreement on an "origin"... in the sense that world lines go back a finite proper time to conditions of extreme density in which classical relativistic physics breaks down and goes to a singularity. I don't think of that as a "centre", myself; and I'm wondering if you meant this, or something else?

Cheers -- sylas

this will become off topic, there are millions of thread about this in this forum, please have a look around. I only answered since the OP made these strange claims.
 
  • #36
malawi_glenn said:
this will become off topic

My thoughts exactly.

Anyway, I think this thread is done now, since the OP hasn't returned and, to be honest, the thread has degraded into nonsense (though it didn't start out too far from it), and poor attempts at irony.

If anyone has any genuine questions, feel free to start a new thread.
 

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