I feel sick from my biologist friend

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relevance of Newtonian physics in education, particularly in the context of a biology major's assertion that Einstein "destroyed" Newtonian physics. Participants explore the implications of this statement, the relationship between biology and physics education, and the broader context of scientific understanding across disciplines.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express frustration over a biology major's misunderstanding of the relationship between Newtonian physics and Einstein's theories, suggesting that basic physics knowledge is expected in biology education.
  • Others argue that while Einstein's theories supersede Newtonian physics in certain contexts, they do not completely invalidate it, noting that Newton's laws still apply in many practical situations.
  • A few participants highlight the importance of understanding the historical context of scientific theories, suggesting that Newton's contributions laid the groundwork for later developments in physics.
  • Some participants humorously critique the perceived disconnect between biology and physics, sharing anecdotes about interactions with biologists and their understanding of physics concepts.
  • There are suggestions that the teaching of relativity may not be necessary for many professionals in fields like biology and engineering, raising questions about the curriculum in science education.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus on the necessity of teaching Newtonian physics versus relativity, with multiple competing views on the relevance and application of these theories in various scientific fields. Disagreements persist regarding the adequacy of physics education among biology majors.

Contextual Notes

Some statements reflect assumptions about the educational background of biology majors and the applicability of physics in their fields, which may not be universally valid. The discussion also touches on the subjective nature of scientific understanding and the varying degrees of knowledge across disciplines.

celebrei
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I have a friend who is a major in biology and he asked me why Newtonian physics is still being taught in higschool and college since he said Einstein "destroyed" (yes that was his term) Newtonian physics, and I said "you should stick to biology" and went home sick from hearing it...
 
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You should have said Darwin was wrong and evolution is "just a theory".
 
Cyrus said:
You should have said Darwin was wrong and evolution is "just a theory".

lol, yeah! that would have spited him :smile:
 
I can't even count the times biologist friends have made me barf, but it was for completely different reasons. I'm not sure we should allow them in polite company.
 
Math Is Hard said:
I can't even count the times biologist friends have made me barf, but it was for completely different reasons. I'm not sure we should allow them in polite company.
I just learned the gastro-intestinal tract is considered part of the outside of the body. Biologists don't consider them inside till they cross a tissue wall.
 
zoobyshoe said:
I just learned the gastro-intestinal tract is considered part of the outside of the body. Biologists don't consider them inside till they cross a tissue wall.
I can't imagine a mathematician would consider it "inside" either.
 
Fricken topology...making anatomy more disgusting since 1954. (Yes, that year is totally random)
 
celebrei said:
I have a friend who is a major in biology and he asked me why Newtonian physics is still being taught in higschool and college since he said Einstein "destroyed" (yes that was his term) Newtonian physics, and I said "you should stick to biology" and went home sick from hearing it...

I think you need to get your priorities in order if you get up and leave your friends for not knowing something about physics when it's pretty clear they have never taken a physics class.
 
zoobyshoe said:
I just learned the gastro-intestinal tract is considered part of the outside of the body.

Yeah, the human body is a torus. So cool.
 
  • #10
Frzn said:
I think you need to get your priorities in order if you get up and leave your friends for not knowing something about physics when it's pretty clear they have never taken a physics class.

I'm pretty sure he and other biologists have at least taken physics classes in high school so he should have at least basic knowledge about physics, unless of course he went through college thinking his high school physics teacher taught him wrong stuff
 
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  • #11
celebrei said:
I'm pretty sure he and other biologists have at least taken physics classes in high school so he should have at least basic knowledge about physics, unless of course he went through college thinking his high school physics teacher taught him wrong stuff

Anyone who majors in Biology has to pass a basic intro to physics course. That accomplished, they promptly forget it all. Same for anyone going into medicine. In the course of fulfilling that prerequisite, your friend clearly got Einstein's effect on classical physics garbled up.
 
  • #12
zoobyshoe said:
Anyone who majors in Biology has to pass a basic intro to physics course. That accomplished, they promptly forget it all. Same for anyone going into medicine. In the course of fulfilling that prerequisite, your friend clearly got Einstein's effect on classical physics garbled up.

We remind them again when they get to med school. I don't know how many times in the past couple of weeks I've had to say to a med student, "That's why you had to take physics to get into med school."

There are so many more fun ways to gross out people with biology, it's a shame to have to resort to a lack of knowledge of physics. :rolleyes:
 
  • #13
Moonbear said:
We remind them again when they get to med school. I don't know how many times in the past couple of weeks I've had to say to a med student, "That's why you had to take physics to get into med school."

There are so many more fun ways to gross out people with biology, it's a shame to have to resort to a lack of knowledge of physics. :rolleyes:

I majored in Zoology (for pre-med/pre-dent), and got MORE interested in physics-

-partly due to the physics teachers, and the ones who said, "We don't know why/what/how those things work"
 
  • #14
Well, Einstein's SR and GR did supersede Newton's F=ma and Law of universal gravitation in precision and range of effectiveness (although, F=dp/dt still works). I, myself wouldn't call that "destroyed", but I can see where he's coming from...
 
  • #15
Newton is my source of inspiration and i love physics.
 
  • #16
Eric McClean said:
Newton is my source of inspiration and i love physics.

You've never read the history about him, have you? Probably the last person to aspire to.
 
  • #17
Cyrus said:
You've never read the history about him, have you? Probably the last person to aspire to.
My thoughts too when I read his post, unless you want to be a secluded eccentric.
 
  • #18
I remember Feynman has said something about this topic in his Lectures
 
  • #19
Cyrus said:
You've never read the history about him, have you? Probably the last person to aspire to.

hahaha so true! he probably hasn't seen Newton playing poker yet! :smile:

 
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  • #20
celebrei said:
I have a friend who is a major in biology and he asked me why Newtonian physics is still being taught in higschool and college since he said Einstein "destroyed" (yes that was his term) Newtonian physics, and I said "you should stick to biology" and went home sick from hearing it...

You should tell him to solve all his biology problems by applying quantum physics/chemistry. And, tell him to use the relativistic version of QM, since standard QM theory is not really correct.
 
  • #21
Matterwave said:
Well, Einstein's SR and GR did supersede Newton's F=ma and Law of universal gravitation in precision and range of effectiveness (although, F=dp/dt still works). I, myself wouldn't call that "destroyed", but I can see where he's coming from...

Einstein wouldn't have been able to formulate his theory of relativity if Newton hadn't first laid down the foundations, general relativity is indeed a replacement of universal gravitation but special relativity is just a modification/expansion of Newtonian physics (when approaching the speed of light) the reason we even have theories of relativity is that they use Newton's first law in the first place, and besides, Einstein's theory of gravity was dependent on Riemannian geometry and special relativity was dependent on Minkowski space, Albert had a LOT of help to able to come up with his theories.
 
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  • #22
robertm said:
Yeah, the human body is a torus. So cool.

And 1/12 of humans are Taurus, too.
 
  • #23
celebrei said:
Einstein wouldn't have been able to formulate his theory of relativity if Newton hadn't first laid down the foundations, general relativity is indeed a replacement of universal gravitation but special relativity is just a modification/expansion of Newtonian physics (when approaching the speed of light) the reason we even have theories of relativity is that they use Newton's first law in the first place, and besides, Einstein's theory of gravity was dependent on Riemannian geometry and special relativity was dependent on Minkowski space, Albert had a LOT of help to able to come up with his theories.
The real point is: almost no one needs to use Relativity. I started a thread a few years back asking when and where Relativity is actually applied. There was a lot of head scratching and the best answer anyone could give was that it might be used by researchers to analyze what was going on in particle accelerators. I'm sure pure theorists use it all the time, but the average engineer, biologist, doctor never touches it. The question should not be why is Newtonian Physics still taught, but "Why is Relativity ever taught in a prerequisite course?"
 
  • #24
Math Is Hard said:
I can't even count the times biologist friends have made me barf, but it was for completely different reasons. I'm not sure we should allow them in polite company.
You should come and have lunch with me, if you dare :biggrin:
 
  • #25
zoobyshoe said:
The real point is: almost no one needs to use Relativity. I started a thread a few years back asking when and where Relativity is actually applied. There was a lot of head scratching and the best answer anyone could give was that it might be used by researchers to analyze what was going on in particle accelerators. I'm sure pure theorists use it all the time, but the average engineer, biologist, doctor never touches it. The question should not be why is Newtonian Physics still taught, but "Why is Relativity ever taught in a prerequisite course?"
You need it for GPS technology:
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html
 
  • #26
zoobyshoe said:
The real point is: almost no one needs to use Relativity. I started a thread a few years back asking when and where Relativity is actually applied. There was a lot of head scratching and the best answer anyone could give was that it might be used by researchers to analyze what was going on in particle accelerators. I'm sure pure theorists use it all the time, but the average engineer, biologist, doctor never touches it. The question should not be why is Newtonian Physics still taught, but "Why is Relativity ever taught in a prerequisite course?"

Quite so! quite so! almost all engineers in the present still have a "Newtonian mindset" in applications concerning their work.
 
  • #27
celebrei said:
and I said "you should stick to biology" and went home sick from hearing it...
He asked you a question. You could have explained to him in 5 min why Newtonian physics stands, but no, you decided to feel sick, go home and trumpet on internet.

This aint what friends do.
 
  • #28
DanP said:
He asked you a question. You could have explained to him in 5 min why Newtonian physics stands, but no, you decided to feel sick, go home and trumpet on internet.

This aint what friends do.
I agree, what kind of response is that? It is a valid question and there is a straightforward answer. What if you were to ask a naive biological question and your friend would be disgusted and say "you should stick to physics". That would be an incredibly bigoted thing to do.
 
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  • #29
DanP said:
He asked you a question. You could have explained to him in 5 min why Newtonian physics stands, but no, you decided to feel sick, go home and trumpet on internet.

This aint what friends do.

Sorry that wasn't a clear depiction of what happened, I didn't left him on the spot then, after he said that, I did say he should stick to Biology (in a friendly humorous way) but afterward we talked about something else, though in the back of my mind I was truly disturbed by what he said, my fault perhaps was not clarifying his vague view on physics, he could be very touchy sometimes and doesn't really like to be corrected, reminds me of my grandfather who I angered when I corrected him that a firewall does not prevent a PC from frying :p
 
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