B I Need Help on Understanding Some Basic Astrophysics / Sand Clock Universe

[CanerKaraca]

TL;DR Summary

Sand Clock Universe/White Hole Universe Model

I need help on an idea I have had for the last couple of months. I am not an astrophysicist so I am here to get some direction on whether this makes sense or not.

It is well known that the fabric of space can ben bent by the objects in it. Planets and astreoids can only bend the space-time so much but we know that black holes bend the space-time down to a single point.

In addition, we know that the universe started with a big bang from a single point. It is expanding and the dark energy is increasing the acceleration of this expansion.

Considering the fact that a black holes life cycle is way more than the life of the universe as we know it. And the fact that the gravity of a black hole is always increasing because it is directly related to the mass it is always sucking in; could it be that the big bang event itself started behind of a black hole? And could it be that the dark energy is fed by the mass that the black hole on the other side is always sucking in?

Also, can the black hole jets be included in this discussion? We know that a massive energy burst near the poles of the black hole can occur and push/accelarate matter. Can this phenomena occur in a way that the jet is directed to the center of the black hole? Is this energy coming from the jet sufficient enough to create what we know as "Big Bang" on the other side of the black hole?

Could it be that the universe is actually shaped like sand clock and we only know the half of it?

As far as I researched so far there is no concrete study on this (White Holes) and this idea is on the "speculation" side more than real astrophysics.

Could it be that the universe is actually shaped like sand clock and we only know the half of it?

 

[jedishrfu]

Welcome to PF!

 

[phinds]

but we know that black holes bend the space-time down to a single point.

No, we do NOT know that. That misconception is an artifact of following a math model down to where we believe that it does not apply.

In addition, we know that the universe started with a big bang from a single point. It is expanding and the dark energy is increasing the acceleration of this expansion.

No, it most emphatically did NOT start as a "single point". In fact it may have been infinite in extent but in any case it was not a point.

Considering the fact that a black holes life cycle is way more than the life of the universe as we know it. And the fact that the gravity of a black hole is always increasing because it is directly related to the mass it is always sucking in; could it be that the big bang event itself started behind of a black hole?

Not at all likely

And could it be that the dark energy is fed by the mass that the black hole on the other side is always sucking in?

Not at all likely

Also, can the black hole jets be included in this discussion? We know that a massive energy burst near the poles of the black hole can occur and push/accelarate matter. Can this phenomena occur in a way that the jet is directed to the center of the black hole? Is this energy coming from the jet sufficient enough to create what we know as "Big Bang" on the other side of the black hole?

No, the jets move AWAY from the BH.

Could it be that the universe is actually shaped like sand clock and we only know the half of it?

No, that doesn't even make sense.

As far as I researched so far there is no concrete study on this (White Holes) and this idea is on the "speculation" side more than real astrophysics.

Correct. White holes are not really believed to exist but they are a valid solution the math of GR, as I understand it.

Could it be that the universe is actually shaped like sand clock and we only know the half of it?

Again, no ... that doesn't even make sense.

 

[phinds]

@CanerKaraca it certainly appears that you have gotten your "information" from pop-sci sources. This is all very interesting stuff but you will be (and clearly have been) seriously misled by pop-sci and I suggest you read some actual physics. Browsing this forum is a good place to start but an actual text would be better.

 

[berkeman]

Thread level prefix changed from "A"=Advanced/Graduate School level to "B"=Basic level.

 

[ohwilleke]

could it be that the big bang event itself started behind of a black hole?

The mathematics of the Big Bang singularity and of black hole singularities in general relativity are similar, and astrophysicists have considered this possibility.

And could it be that the dark energy is fed by the mass that the black hole on the other side is always sucking in?

This possibility makes less sense.

In a four dimensional, hour glass shaped universe, the Big Bang is stationary in the middle of the universe on the time dimension, and is not in contact with the post-Big Bang universe as it expands.

Also, can the black hole jets be included in this discussion? We know that a massive energy burst near the poles of the black hole can occur and push/accelarate matter. Can this phenomena occur in a way that the jet is directed to the center of the black hole? Is this energy coming from the jet sufficient enough to create what we know as "Big Bang" on the other side of the black hole?

Black hole jets are made of ordinary matter (and perhaps dark matter too) that rushes towards a black hole, and misses, and as a result, ends up going far away from the black hole.

None of these speculations about black hole jets has merit.

We have no way at all (almost by definition) of knowing what is going on beyond the event horizon of a black hole.

Could it be that the universe is actually shaped like sand clock and we only know the half of it?

Just for clarification, I think that the object you are calling a "sand clock" is more colloquially called in English an "hour glass", which looks like this:

Is the shape above what you are talking about (with the time coordinate running along its axis from top to bottom in this image)?

If I've understood you correctly, this is one of many credible cosmology theories.

As others have noted, however, while you can mathematically project the Big Bang down to an actual point, it is widely believed that a true quantum gravity theory (as opposed to the classical theory of General Relativity) is necessary to understand such extreme, high energy environments. In such a quantum gravity theory, the Big Bang was probably not an actual point and is instead, spatially, only much smaller than the current observable universe, without any very specifically determined size (we can't very specifically determine the size precisely because we don't have a quantum gravity theory that works at such high energies, which we, in turn, don't have because quantum gravity is mathematically a highly intractable problem, i.e. it's very hard to figure out).

There are cosmology models in which everything in the universe is confined to a fairly small space at the time of the Big Bang, and expands spatially both forward and backward in time from that point, with our universe forward in time from it, and an "anti-universe" backward in time from it, in which anti-matter is predominant. For example:

We argue that the Big Bang can be understood as a type of mirror. We show how reflecting boundary conditions for spinors and higher spin fields are fixed by local Lorentz and gauge symmetry, and how a temporal mirror (like the Bang) differs from a spatial mirror (like the AdS boundary), providing a possible explanation for the observed pattern of left- and right-handed fermions. By regarding the Standard Model as the limit of a minimal left-right symmetric theory, we obtain a new, cosmological solution of the strong CP problem, without an axion.

Latham Boyle, Martin Teuscher, Neil Turok, "The Big Bang as a Mirror: a Solution of the Strong CP Problem" arXiv:2208.10396 (August 22, 2022). See also Ignazio Licata, Davide Fiscaletti, Leonardo Chiatti, Fabrizio Tamburini, "CPT Symmetry in Projective de Sitter Universes" arXiv:2002.07550 (February 18, 2020); Latham Boyle, Kieran Finn, Neil Turok, "The Big Bang, CPT, and neutrino dark matter" arXiv:1803.08930 (March 23, 2018); and Salvador J. Robles-Perez, "Restoration of matter-antimatter symmetry in the multiverse" arXiv:1706.06304 (June 20, 2017).

Similarly, consider this paper:

If we look from a quantum perspective, the most natural way in which the universe can be created is in entangled pairs whose time flow is oppositely related. This suggests the idea of the creation of a universe-antiuniverse pair.

Assuming the validity of this hypothesis, in this paper, we show that the universe expands in an accelerated manner. The same reasoning holds for the anti-universe as well. This idea does not require any form of dark energy as used in the standard cosmological model ΛCDM or in modified theories of gravity.

Naman Kumar, "On the Accelerated Expansion of the Universe" 30 Gravitation and Cosmology 85-88 (April 4, 2024).

The mechanism utilized in Kumar's paper in lieu of dark energy, however, has basically nothing in common with your idea of a white hole at the Big Bang sucking matter from time periods before the Big Bang or outside our observable universe in some other way, into our universe.

Kumar cites four papers by two other groups of scientists as a source for the anti-universe model:

* L. Boyle, K. Finn and, N. Turok, “CPT-symmetric universe,” 121 Phys. Rev. Lett. 251301 (2018).

* L. Boyle, K. Finn, and N. Turok, “The Big Bang, CPT, and neutrino dark matter,” 438 Annals of Phys. 168767 (2022).

* S. J. Robles-Pürez, “Time reversal symmetry in cosmology and the creation of a universe–antiuniverse pair,” 5 Universe 150 (2019).

* S. J. Robles-Pürez, “Quantum creation of a universe-antiuniverse pair,” arXiv: 2002.09863.

These theories, collectively, are sometimes called "mirror universe" models. But the term "mirror universe" can be ambiguous, because sometimes the term "mirror universe" refers to some subset of the ordinary matter in the universe that co-exists with us and refers to the invisible, dark matter component (called "mirror matter" in these theories) of the observable universe.