# I need input, I invented a number system

1. Dec 23, 2011

### newkdunham

I invented a number system in 2008 and I've never shared it with the public I thought I might as well...I had my reasons at the time for inventing it, and i think it may be useful...although i invented it, it's features are really natural features of our universe itself, and are therefore much less arbitrary than any number system i've encountered before,,,,,The number system is used as follows,,,,,a equilateral triangle is disected into combinatory permutations of it's sides,,,,there being 3 sides of a triangle there are 7 and only 7 representable permutations, no more, no less, consisting of 3 instances of one side represented, 3 instances of 2 sides represented, and the one instance of the full triangle being represented

the reason this number system may be useful is that because of the nature of science and scientific endeavor every effort we make toward finding the truth in turn affects the truth we are trying to find, and our work changes the environment we live in (based on the Heizenburg Principle), we have no choice but to live in it, we have no choice but to operate on the same plane as our experiments and logics. This has been apparent in the usefulness of "Planke's measurements" in physics, where simply by using different scales of measurements that are more related to the subjects of physical interactions the physicist is investigating,,the physicist can !sometimes (caveat) come up with better measurements and predictions,,,,realistically if you look through 2 different microscopes at the same subject you would expect to find the same thing,,,of course if you killed the subject with the first microscope you might end up seeing something different with the second microscope regardless,,,,so my number system could be used to further verify currently proved mathematical theory,,,by actually using it to do all the same mathematics done with current systems,,,,you would actually be strengthening any previous arguement if you found the same answer with another base of number system,,,(my number system is base-7),,this is because you have further tested that your choice of number system was not a factor in coming up with your original answer,,,,so technically you would want to test every major mathematical arguement with my number system and others (perhaps other bases) to make sure the same answer is always found in those other number systems (of course there are WRONG answers to be found if the the number system does NOT define the same points on Y=X),,,

Getting back to my number system it is visually represented by drawings of the equilateral triangle,,,,the convention used would be a point directly pointing upward to keep constant the triangle's orientation, and a convention on reading in the direction of the native language of the user of the number system,,,thus from what i said before / = 1.00, \ = 2.00, _ = 3.00, /_ = 4.00, _\ = 5.00, ^ = 6.00, and /_\ = 7.00 in the set of real numbers,,,depending on the writing convention of the user present you would simply add triangles and parts of triangles of any quantity to thus represent any number from 0 to infinity, and from 0 to negative infinity, the negative sign ( - ) could easily be used to expand my system as well as decimal places to represent fractions, and the addition of a zero is easy, i decided on a personal convention of an upside-down equilateral triangle to represent zero

further this number system can be adapted into a "base-8" system by adding the zero usage to all real numbers at the "8" place adding a zero after every 8 regular integers

also the writing convention can be compacted further by grouping triangles into regular shapes at regular intervals, for example there is a shape used in the video game "Zelda" called the triforce that in my number system would represent 21.00, it being 3 triangles,,,,thus my number system can potentially be adapted to hold and convey more information than the standard 10-base used today, especially if multiple regular shape conventions were invented,,,(why it relates to the symbol in a video game is just by chance)

As I said at the beginning my number system relates inherently to the universe itself,,,as a equilateral triangle always disects into seven permutations, no more, no less,,,thus my number system is not arbitrary, it is in fact universal,,,,I am publishing my work here, so that any one can use it, and I am going to keep studying this and also large numbers (see http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...58eVPQDsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20111223022617AAELnv4)

Ivery much need and want input on this subject,,,,pls email me at kdunham1@rocketmail.com,,,,and i also welcome any related material any one already has that might help me , send me your links! )))

ty and God bless
-K

2. Dec 23, 2011

### DivisionByZro

1. Mathematics has nothing to do with actual, measurable reality.

2. A "number system" is not the end-all be-all of mathematics. Mathematics is not built entirely on the integers, or the reals. There are things called axioms, look those up on google.

3. The fact that you misspell many names and terms scares me. How do you expect anybody to take you seriously if you couldn't care to properly do your own research? Your understanding of what mathematics is as a whole is completely flawed. Your argument as to why your number system is more natural is unsupported and not really try after all.

I'm not saying all this to be mean, I commend your efforts and willingness to think about mathematics on your own, but this can be filed under crackpot stuff.
did you think that just because you're counting sides of a triangle your method is more natural?
How does this help in any way? If you had shown us how some calculations were more efficient in your so-called "base 7", then perhaps it would help your argument.

Summary: This is crackpot stuff, and sadly, quite useless. Again, I didn't want to be mean, I am sorry if I come across as harsh.

Edit: There are also many, many more things I would have liked to comment on (Ex: why _\ = 2.00, with exactly 2 sig. figs.), however, in an attempt to stay moderately friendly, I will not comment on them.

My advice to you: Take some mathematics classes. Read some mathematics books (Courant's "What is Mathematics" springs up in my mind), study more. You have lots of things to learn yet.

Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
3. Dec 23, 2011

### newkdunham

then why are you bothering to reply? the accesibility of methematics is an issue, and as you take such a vitriolic reaction to my ideas I assume you don't care about it's accessiblity anyway, if i had just introduced the base ten system over the use of the roman system YOU would still be yelling "this has nothing to do with math"

You are wrong.

My number system can potentially convey more information than the currently used base ten system, because as i said my system can be not only base-7, but also base-21 and so on at the same time.

All I can say is relax, no hard feelings, but you are wrong.

4. Dec 23, 2011

### PlayingMonk

Can't the base 10 system we commonly use relay an infinite amount of information already? There's no limit to how many digits a number can have. I don't understand where the alleged limitations lie.

5. Dec 23, 2011

### DivisionByZro

You keep saying that, how it can simplify things, how about you show us? This is what peer-review feels like. It's not about compassion. Get used to it. You have given zero good arguments as to why your idea is worth anything. You're clearly offended when you should not be, this is criticism, it should help you.

Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
6. Dec 23, 2011

### jgens

To be fair, I only skimmed what you wrote in the OP. However, I fail to see how your "number system" is more accessible. I had a hard time making heads or tails of what you wrote.

Another thing to consider is that most of modern mathematics is not dependent on the base we use.

7. Dec 24, 2011

### Mentallic

Besides it already being mentioned here that you're just using a base 7 system, which is nothing spectacular, I'd like to know whether you think the triangle is more natural than say, the square?

And looking at your link to yahoo answers, it's quite clear that you're trying to come up with some extensions to what we already know but what isn't taught in high school. You're gravely mistaken for thinking it's something new and ground-breaking though. Just look at number systems for your answer in this thread, and knuth's up arrow notation for the big numbers.

8. Dec 24, 2011

### newkdunham

i'm not saying I have a new number for gravity constant g, im saying that at the very least it is interesting to represent other bases,,,,here's another sequence that my study will show to be regular and dependent on geometry, if you were to permutate the sides of larger equilateral figures you would get a exact immutable sequence that you nor i can change, starting with the triangle it would be 7, 15 for square, 28 for pentagon, and larger and larger, although i dont know if you could say this number hits infinity or not,,,,another sequence that is interesting which is a derivative of this work is the relation of these numbers to the number of sides they have, so let's make a convention that number of sides can be represented by B and the permutation total can be represented by A,,,so, for the triangle, A=7, B=3, A=2B+1, for the square A=15, B=4, A=3B+3, and so on (also for pentagon, A=28, B=5, A=B^2+3) ,,,these numbers are immutable so it is interesting that they are close to the self multiplication of their number of sides, or B^2, and the differences could also then be represented in a sequence such that the difference from B^2 for each permuation takes the IMMUTABLE sequence of (-2.00,-1.00, 3.00),,,,if this doesnt interest you that's fine, but there's nothing about it to berate

-K

9. Dec 24, 2011

### newkdunham

i had already written my reply but didnt see your reply Mentallic, as i showed in my newest reply the square would permutate to a 15-fold system and this is really hard to remember and keep in a standard convention,,,maybe what im saying in the original post sounds like jargon so ill put it simply,,,, here is the codex for my number system (a codex being an agreed upon convention, to emphasize, this is a convention only)

/=1, \=2, _=3, /_=4, _\=5, ^=6, /_\=7

then additions to the right are simply added to the total number of triangles which in turn are multiplied by 7, this number system can describe any real number from negative infinity to positive infinity.

-K

10. Dec 24, 2011

### abiyo

Here again no offense intended but you should show the implication of your
number system to other areas of mathematics. In what does this idea help
or connect to other ideas/concepts in mathematics? Also if you want people
to read your idea, you should write it in a mathematical style presenting
definitions, motivations, theorems and proofs. The proofs shouldn't be personal
opinions or anything for that matter but rather a rigorous way so that others could check

With that said, like others said, I do recommend you get a taste of real mathematics
if you haven't already done so. Pick a book in real analysis, topology, algebra or advanced calculus and see the proofs, the concepts and problems. The work great mathematicians
have done should show you that any mathematical idea is not isolated: It has connection
and rich implications to other branches of mathematics. A humble start will be to learn
as much as possible and when one is ready, one could go to tackle problems. It will
also be nice if you could tell us your mathematical background and how this problem/thought

11. Dec 24, 2011

### Staff: Mentor

Any number system can convey the same information as any other number system.

There are lots of number systems in common use, besides the decimal system, such as base 2, base 16, and base 64. The only practical advantage in having a larger base is that a given number can be represented with fewer symbols.

12. Dec 24, 2011

### newkdunham

i don't have to justify my interest in mathematics, and abiyo that is really distasteful what you are implying, i could ask you to do the same but im not going to because that would be impolite.

Yes there are many concerns about the way you look at mathematics and the tools you use, for example physicists are finding the Planke's units to be very useful where they, through a convention, define units of measurement as relating to a baseline number relating the 5 constants in physics. When this is done numbers that are unwielding before with the standard base ten number system and sociologically determined measurement systems (meter, second, etc.) are then transformed into sometimes useful managable numbers. Again although this doesnt always occur it can sometimes in the environments of physics and chemistry which are vastly different from the "meat and potatoes" (pun-intended) environments of everyday meter and second measurements.

While I will not ask you to list your mathematics degrees I will put this challenge to you, please dispute, with reasons, my above defence of the need to broaden mathematical tools availible to mathematicians.

Or let's put this simple. Does 1.5x10^280 = 1.5x10^280 + 1? Now prove to me that they are not equal.

In base 10 you would represent them...exactly the same. When a number system or human lacks processing power what do they do? They approximate. We see this with pi, we see this with the speed of light. And computers utterly trump humans in the numbers of digits they can remember and calculate.

Again please explain why each of these points is not valid, and all of them relate to my number system. Or are you just going to refute them because they are new ideas. Are you going to skim the post and then make a broad generalization?

-K

13. Dec 24, 2011

### newkdunham

Mark,
isn't what you just said a complete dicotomy?

14. Dec 24, 2011

### jgens

I think you misinterpreted the intent of his/her post.

The first point was essentially that if you expect other people to take your idea seriously, then you need to demonstrate that the idea is useful to them. Since very very few mathematicians do any work at all with different number-bases, you really have not given a sufficient justification why anyone should take your idea seriously. It might not seem like that is how things should be, but it is how they are.

The second point was essentially encouraging you to study some serious mathematics and learn how various fields interact. I really fail to see how this is offensive.

First, Planck units are not really a tool, just a notational convenience. Second, it turns out that most of modern mathematics is independent of whichever base you choose for the natural numbers and integers. So your idea probably has very few (if any) novel applications to modern mathematics.

Assuming that we are talking about N, that they are not equal is essentially a matter of definition. In fact, it is easy to prove that n+1 ≠ n for any n in N. It doesn't matter which base we choose to represent n as! The proof is independent of the base!

There are plenty of instances where approximation is useful or necessary in math. This is not one of them.

I think the above should explain why nobody is taking your number system seriously.

15. Dec 24, 2011

### Staff: Mentor

Nor are we asking you to. And besides, that's not what the discussion is about.
What abiyo wrote seemed entirely reasonable to me. What is it that seems so distasteful about what you believe he is implying?
No, 1.5x10^280 and 1.5x10^280 + 1 are NOT equal.
1.5x10^280 = 150000...00 (I am not showing the 279 0's that follow the 5 digit.)
1.5x10^280 + 1 = 150000...01 (I am not showing the 279 0's that follow the 5 digit.)

If pressed I could easily write out all 281 digits of each number.

Clearly these are not the same number, and just as clearly, the 2nd number minus the first produces a difference of 1. That should suffice to show that they aren't equal.

Why in the world would you think they are equal?

The form you used is scientific notation, not their base-10 representations. I wrote the numbers in base-10 notation (with some digits omitted to save space).
Other than using parts of a triangle to represent the numbers in your base-7 system, I don't see much new here. As already mentioned by others in this thread, mathematics is not much concerned with the number system that's being used. In much of mathematics beyond calculus, it is mostly symbols that are used, with very few numerals of any base in sight.

Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
16. Dec 24, 2011

### Staff: Mentor

For your convenience, I quoted what I said, since you didn't. What part of what I said seems to be a dichotomy to you?

17. Dec 24, 2011

### newkdunham

ok ill quote you mark,
Mark44"Any number system can convey the same information as any other number system.

There are lots of number systems in common use, besides the decimal system, such as base 2, base 16, and base 64. The only practical advantage in having a larger base is that a given number can be represented with fewer symbols."

"a given number can be represented with fewer symbols" While you say this you ignore that this is beneficial depending on the usage of the base, this is in direct dicotomy to what you said above-
"Any number system can convey the same information as any other number system"

At the same time, a number system can most certainly FAIL to convey the same information as another. There are numerous instances of this in the case of the addition of zero, the change from the roman system to base ten, the adding of decimals.

Then in your other above post i see nothing but baiting ideological arguements, I'm not interested in these unimportant small points you have with my ideas that certainly you are free to argue into the dust, for example here-

Mark44
"No, 1.5x10^280 and 1.5x10^280 + 1 are NOT equal.
1.5x10^280 = 150000...00 (I am not showing the 279 0's that follow the 5 digit.)
1.5x10^280 + 1 = 150000...01 (I am not showing the 279 0's that follow the 5 digit.)

If pressed I could easily write out all 281 digits of each number.

Clearly these are not the same number, and just as clearly, the 2nd number minus the first produces a difference of 1. That should suffice to show that they aren't equal.

Why in the world would you think they are equal?"

"why in the world would you think they are equal?" is just completely baiting and snide tactics, we all know they are not equal. That is not the point of my bringing this up...

18. Dec 24, 2011

### newkdunham

jgens "Since very very few mathematicians do any work at all with different number-bases"

this is just blatant misinformation

the use of base 2 in computing is well documented

19. Dec 24, 2011

### jgens

Dichotomy is not the word you mean here. This is very plain since dichotomy is a noun while you are using it as a verb.

I am nitpicking, but I think the distinction is important. We actually are not talking about number systems at all here. The term number system is usually used to refer to things like N, Z, Q, R, etc. What you are talking about is ways of representing the elements of number systems. As a result, one way of representing the number system must convey the same information as another way of representing it.

What is the point of bringing it up? The result is trivially true regardless of which base we choose to represent our number system as.

20. Dec 24, 2011

### jgens

You are misinterpreting the point. Sure, base 2 happens to be a useful way to represent some things in computablity theory, but that does not mean mathematicians are researching different number-bases and their properties. In fact, it is hypothetically possible to do the same work in base 10!

Additionally, from my experience, most mathematicians do work in algebra, algebraic number theory, algebraic geometry, topology, analysis, etc. In these fields, the base-system you choose to represent the natural numbers (or other number systems) are usually irrelevant. So my statement is not incorrect from that standpoint either.

21. Dec 24, 2011

### newkdunham

but base 2 is an exception to what you said right, but base-7 which im interested in, is not useful because,,,,,you don't like it, you only speak for yourself, you don't speak for "all mathematicians"

nitpicking is a good description, if you find a spelling mistake in one of my replies that says absolutely nothing about the validity of the arguments in my original post

my question is not about english grammar, sooooooo yea you are being petty

two questions, did you ever get to reading my original post since you said you "skimmed" it before giving your first generalization of it,

and secondly would YOU represent 1.5x10^280 differently than 1.5x10^280 + 1?

no it is not possible to do the same computing using as little power supply as a base 2 language computer using a base 10 system you are wrong, flat out wrong.

22. Dec 24, 2011

### jgens

Except that base 2 is not an exception. Mathematicians work in base 2 in computability theory because computers operate using binary. Mathematicians could do the same work in computability theory using base 7 or base 10. The reason base 2 is used is at least partly from practicality since our computers operate using a binary language. Note that this is not a mathematical reason for using base 2 but one that is forced by physical constraints.

I have nothing against base 7. I do not particularly care for one base over another. This is especially true since the work I do with math does not depend on the base I choose.

I still stand by my belief that nitpicking the definition of number system is useful. It should help illuminate that one way of representing the natural numbers cannot provide more information than another way of representing the natural numbers. Some information might be more readily discernible using another representation, but any other representation must contain the same information.

As for the grammar, it honestly helps if you spell words correctly and use proper syntax. I know many other members of this forum feel the same way. You might feel it is petty, but that is the way things are.

I read your OP. Since you did not provide any real use or justification of naturality of your system, I still do not believe that there is anything special about it.

First, of course I would represent those two numbers differently since they are different numbers. If that is not what you meant, perhaps you should clarify the question.

As to your last claim, that may well be the case. But that is not a mathematical reason to use base 2. That is a reason why computers should have a binary language but it does not argue much else.

23. Dec 24, 2011

### Mentallic

Which is why (and you've already been asked) to provide examples of where using the base 7 system and portraying it in the way you have has any useful applications.

24. Dec 24, 2011

### Staff: Mentor

Please show how you would represent both numbers using your system. So far I understand how to display numbers up to 7, it is not clear to me what to do with things like 823543.

25. Dec 24, 2011

### micromass

This thread doesn't meet the posting criteria of this forum.

To the OP: you did nothing new and groundbreaking. You just changed the base of the system and gave other names to the numbers. You might be very proud of it, but it's not really impressive.