Ideal Carnot Engine: Find Time & Power Output

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around an ideal Carnot engine operating between a heat reservoir and a block of ice, focusing on the time required to melt the ice and the power output of the engine. The problem involves thermodynamic principles and the relationships between heat transfer, work, and entropy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive an expression for the time to melt the ice and questions the validity of an alternative expression encountered. They express confusion regarding the relationship between the temperature of the reservoir and the melting time.
  • Some participants question the assumption that the rate of work done by the engine is zero, suggesting that the engine should produce power due to the temperature difference.
  • Others discuss the role of entropy in the analysis of the Carnot engine, considering how heat and work relate to changes in entropy for both the hot and cold reservoirs.
  • There are mentions of mixing differential and non-differential terms in equations, indicating uncertainty in the application of thermodynamic concepts.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants exploring various interpretations of the problem. Some guidance has been offered regarding the importance of entropy in analyzing the Carnot engine, but no consensus has been reached on the assumptions or the correct approach to the problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants are grappling with the implications of their assumptions about work and entropy in the context of the Carnot engine, indicating potential gaps in understanding the thermodynamic principles at play.

vladimir69
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Homework Statement


An ideal Carnot engine operates between a heat reservoir and a block of ice of mass M. An external energy source maintains the reservoir at a constant temperature T_{h}. At time t=0 the ice is at its melting point T_{0}, but it is insulated from everything except the engine, so it is free to change state and temperature. The engine is operated in such a way that it extracts heat from the reservoir at a constant rate P_{h}.
(a) Find an expression for the time t_{1} at which all the ice is melted, in terms of the quantities given and any other thermodynamic parameters.
(b) Find an expression for the mechanical power output of the engine as a function of time for times t > t_{1}.

Homework Equations


Q=ML_{f}
W=Q_{h}-Q_{c}
\frac{dQ_{h}}{dt}=\frac{dQ_{c}}{dt} + \frac{dW}{dt}

The Attempt at a Solution


First of all I assumed
\frac{dW}{dt}=0
so
\frac{dQ_{h}}{dt}=\frac{dQ_{c}}{dt}= P_{h}

\int dQ_{h} = P_{h}\int dt = P_{h}t_{1} = ML_{f}
so
t_{1} = \frac{ML_{f}}{P_{h}}

but somehow to answer manages to squeeze out

t_{1} = \frac{ML_{f}T_{h}}{P_{h}T_{0}}

Whats the deal here? That answer doesn't seem to make much sense since it appears to be saying the hotter the heat reservoir, the longer it takes to melt the ice. I would have thought it to be the other way around.

And for part (b) I am not sure where to start.
 
Last edited:
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Where do you get dW/dt=0? Is the engine not producing power? It certainly should be, if it's perfectly efficient and there's a nonzero temperature difference between the two reservoirs.
 
I took it to mean W = constant, so d/dt W = 0
Still not sure how to proceed
 
But W isn't constant, the total work you extract increases every second that the engine operates.

Think entropy: how much comes in from the hot reservoir? How much leaves with work? How much goes to the cold reservoir? How much is created? That's the key to analyzing Carnot engines.
 
I'm not really sure about the entropy of any of them
perhaps
dS_{h}=\frac{dQ_{h}}{T_{h}}
and maybe
dS_{c}=\frac{ML_{f}}{T_{c}}
No idea about how much entropy leaves as work.
 
vladimir69 said:
I'm not really sure about the entropy of any of them
perhaps
dS_{h}=\frac{dQ_{h}}{T_{h}}
and maybe
dS_{c}=\frac{ML_{f}}{T_{c}}

Great; although you're mixing differential and non-differential terms in the second equation, it's the right idea.

vladimir69 said:
No idea about how much entropy leaves as work.

There is no entropy transfer associated with work.
 
I was just writing random equations not sure how this fits into the overall scheme of things
 

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