IF God could actually create miracles

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  • #26
hypnagogue
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I find this thread an amusing display of human hubris. We talk about God with such an abstract approach that we lose sight of the actual substance of the matter at hand. For instance, as I have explained in the religion forum, it's a commonly accepted idea that the following is a meaningless question: "Why did superadvanced, 10 billion year old Type IV alien civilization decide to go and do that?" It's meaningless to ask because we recognize that such a race would be so far advanced beyond us that it would totally escape our comprehension. Yet people commonly ask questions like "Why did God decide to go and do that?" as if they could possibly understand the rationale of a being that is by definition infinitely more advanced than they are.

Now there is a notion in this thread of people trying to maintain some sense of human dignity in the face of God. I hope I'm not coming off here as a religious zealot, because I'm anything but that. But come on people. You're saying if you came face to face with an infinitely loving being who is responsible for existence as we know it, you would look It calmly in the eye (figuratively) and ask, maybe, if It would like to go out for coffee some time? If you looked past the veil of abstraction in this discussion and considered what the actual experience would be like, how can you deny that you wouldn't just outright melt with awe and love? Think of the scene from the end of Dogma where Jay is confused and pissed off and wants answers, and then he simply looks into the eyes of God and collapses with a blissed look on his face. Better yet, think of the most awe-inspiring, love filled, inspirational, whatever moment of your life. Multiply that by infinity. Consider what that would be like.
 
  • #27
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your comments bring back seemingly distant memories of the exact types of experiences you're talking about.

in fact, it was only less than a month ago that i feel i made direct contacts and links with God and received messages from it, albeit brief, and i've already almost forgotten. maybe the fact that my account of my experience was deleted on another forum because it was considered, presumably, as invalid. i sought validation and replication in others when, in reality, that may be a waste of energy. people don't really seem to WANT to see God. i put in two months of concentrated effort, learning all i could, before i had any success and it wasn't easy. that's not to mention pondering the matter on and off for my whole life building up to those experiences.

so what now? what should i do if no one really wants to know if God exists? what if no one wants to try the experiments and prayers i've learned that work for me? is it time to give up and just focus on myself?

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #28
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phoenixthoth,

There is no unique, sure fire way to achieve that sort of experience (that has yet been discovered, at least). I don't dispute that your technique works for you, or that it could work for other people, but I doubt it will work for everyone. There is a saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." There is also a saying, "in that you seek me, you have already found me."

The crucial element in any person's spiritual journey, I think, is their own willingness. They must really yearn for it, and they must accept and practice at least the basic tenet of spirituality which is uniform across all traditions, which is to transcend the ego. That phrase is a bit nebulous, but (as I'm sure you know) it is hard to describe and direct, and it even seems (from personal experience at least) that the more detailed the explanation is the more likely the explanation will give a faulty impression of what it actually means. The only avenue beyond the ego lies firmly in the ego itself. Spiritual teachers are invaluable, but they can only point an individual toward the road; walking the road is ultimately up to that individual, which in turn depends on the individual's own personal makeup at the deepest of levels-- something that cannot be readily changed.

That having been said, I don't know how to answer your question. I think you are right that deep down some people simply don't care for the transcendent or spiritual experience-- their beliefs forbid it. Others may want it badly but go astray at some point in the process. Simple answer is, do what you think or feel is right. But I would say this, that it is futile to try to guide a flame that isn't lit. Whether you can ignite someone's flame for them is another question altogether.

(edit: grammar bad)
 
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  • #29
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thank you for your input. lots of things to consider.

i wouldn't put it as transcending the ego so much as owning the ego rather than letting it own you. i believe the self is comprised of three parts: the little self (ego), the higher self, and the true self (soul). while this division seems arbitrary, it seems to me like this division is right on with what i've experienced. the goal (the first goal) is to get in touch with all three parts and own them and not let them own you and to tap into the true self as the main source of wisdom and contact with God. the higher self can articulate what the true self silently "says." the higher self lives somewhere between the earthly ego and the true soul and it is the middle man, so to speak.

you're absolutely right: i can lead a horse to water but i can't make it drink. heck, i may even be able to make it drink, but i can't make it digest the water (God's message, aka the divine wine) fully or at all. i can't even expect everyone capable of swallowing God's pill.

part of God's pill is this: according to what i've learned, we all have a role to play in this universe, a role our soul signed up for before we were born. my role, according to sources, was to hold up a mirror for people to examine their beliefs and selves in. certainly not to be any kind of spiritual leader or guru, though something kinda like that from a certain perspective. i feel like God told me to become a janitor but i don't know where the mop is. my friend's answer was to seek other tools besides a mop, after asking if i wanted to become a janitor (to which i said yes). if i can't find a mop, then spit shine the floor, he said. be innovative and do what you think is right, as you said.

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #30
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Originally posted by phoenixthoth
this is rather presumptive, that life neccessarily has to come with suffering.
I never said it has to come with suffering , but the source of all the suffering is not caused by humans. It is caused by god , as he has put us in vulnerable bodies of necessities. We are required to eat , drink , be physically fit , ect in order to live , and the resources of these needs aren't provided to us , instead we have to work for them , thus this creates suffering. The suffering only exacerbates as the supply of these resources for our needs is limited.

perhaps you should adopt a buddhist approach in which suffering is seen as resulting from DESIRE and, therefore, desires need to be reigned in and controled so as to control suffering. just a thought. from this perspective, suffering need not go hand in hand with life itself.
Are you suggesting that the people in Eithopia are suffering because of their desire for food which is caused by their hunger? They cannot control their desire for food for they REQUIRE food in order to live! What about droughts which causes famine? What about plagues? People cannot control that. Not all suffering is a result of desires. And all the desires are rooted from one single desire , which is the desire to live.

According to you , god created EVERYTHING , therefore he is the one responsible for implementing desire into us , and thus is at fault for our desires which according to you results in our suffering.


futhermore, i have heard that this is the only planet in which there is so much suffering because it was chosen that droids and beings to coexist on this planet;
I am curious to where or who you have heard this.

So we just happen to be the unlucky individuals who have been thrown right into this planet of suffering?


planets are either all droids or all beings and there is no suffering, no conflict.
Wahh? We have only discovered 9 planets so far , where are you getting all of this?


just as there is no evident suffering in a hive of bees. some planets, according to sources, operate like a hive of bees and there is no suffering
You are again incorrect, there is suffering in a hive of bees because there is still necessities to the lives of bees. Bees have to work for food and thus suffers. If they don't get enough food they starve , and thus suffers even more.

I would like to know who these "sources" are. Let me guess it's from "God."



i believe this planet was an experiment gone arwy.
So we are now lab rats? We are apart of some elaborate experiment created by this being for his own selfish curiousity? After he is bored with us he then abandons us and forces us to fend for our selves.

We did not ask , want , or chose to be created , but he did it anyways , he then puts us into vulnerable bodies of necessities , which thus then created desires. He abandons us and we had to fend for ourselves. We owe him nothing , he owes us everything. We don't have to and shouldn't bow to him or kiss his ass.

When parents bring a child into existance , they owe that child everything. Since the child didn't have a choice , when the parents did. Parents are being selfish , and negligence when they abandon their kids. They "experimented" , and now it's time to take responsibility. I apply the same thing to God.
 
  • #31
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"It is caused by god , as he has put us in vulnerable bodies of necessities."

you are simply wrong. suffering does not come from God. not at all. suffering comes from being human. learn to transcend your human limitations and your suffering will end. (that's a pill *i* need to swallow.)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
 
  • #32
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Not all suffering may not be directly caused by God , but by creating us he has planted the seed for it. If we did not exist , we would not suffer.

learn to transcend your human limitations and your suffering will end.
And who is responsible for our limitations? He not only created us , he created us with limitation , which only exacerbate our suffering.

Even if I "learn" to trascend my limitations suffering will continue , as things such as droughts , famine , disease , death of love ones , cannot be control and still occurs and thus suffering still exist. It is impossible to end suffering unless everything we want and need is met, but that can never happen , thus suffering will never and cannot end.
 
  • #33
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interesting.

by learning to transcend your limitations, the goal is to then teach the rest of the world, one person at a time, how to transcend their limitations. then things like famine, disease, etc, you will be just aware of but not make judgements about. what is the purpose of having emtions such as anger, fear, depression, etc? these are things that we suffer with, tools we use to experience suffering. how about dropping those tools and focusing on other "useful" emotions such as passion, love, bliss, peace, etc.

i find it highly unlikely that the only thing preventing you from being happy all the time is simply your own self and what you permit yourself to focus on. you CAN figure your way out of depression and madness. i have and i'm not any smarter than you. i just learned to be happy with what little i've got. i learned to ADAPT.

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #34
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then things like famine, disease, etc, you will be just aware of but not make judgements about.
What you're saying is absurd and impossible. How can we be aware of something and not judge it? You are constantly judging things even when you are not fully aware of the full picture.

So , in other words you are saying that we should die? We should not judge on why there is famine and just take things as it is? If we had done this we would not have survived as a species. If we had not done this we never would've had inventions and technology.

I take it that you believe in a democracy? Well in a democracy people have to constantly criticize the government , for it is not a democracy if we take the government for what it is. Have you not then , contradicted?

what is the purpose of having emtions such as anger, fear, depression, etc? these are things that we suffer with, tools we use to experience suffering.
I think the question you should ask is why we have them in the first place. Again , this is not our fault for we did not put these emotions into ourselves for it was "God." You seem to be denying the fact that "God" is responsible for these problems.

how about dropping those tools and focusing on other "useful" emotions such as passion, love, bliss, peace, etc.
If we drop them we would not survive. You seem to be following Jesus's teaching of "turning the other cheek" which is in my opinion flawed. You cannot simply live with passion , love , bliss and peace while others have anger , fear , sadness .. ect. Even let's say everyone in the world only have love , bliss , peace .. ect , we still would not survive as a species for having this we would forget our problems. Forgetting our problems will not alleviate our suffering nor will it resolve anything else.

you CAN figure your way out of depression and madness.
I am not depressed nor mad. From a logical point of view , I have a negative view of life. This view has stemmed from my observations of other people's life throughout history and my life.




i just learned to be happy with what little i've got.
That kind of attitude will get you no where. "Be happy with what you've got" Is one of the most ignorant and illogical phrases I have ever heard. It's more like forget your problems and give up. This is the kind of things people say to prevent you from achieving what you want. There will always be others who have it better than you do , but don't hate them , admire them , and figure out how they got there.

i learned to ADAPT.
You mean you learned to give up? You learned to stop questioning the world and life. More importantly you learned to stop learning.
 
  • #35
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Originally posted by Wasper
That kind of attitude will get you no where. "Be happy with what you've got" Is one of the most ignorant and illogical phrases I have ever heard. It's more like forget your problems and give up. This is the kind of things people say to prevent you from achieving what you want. There will always be others who have it better than you do , but don't hate them , admire them , and figure out how they got there.
We can define two classes of problems in life: physical needs, which must be met for survival, and desires, which are irrelevant to survival. No one is suggesting that you stop eating, waste away and die. Rather the suggestion is to re-examine and reign in your desires.

Let's consider a very superficial but relevant example. If you predicate your self-worth on driving a nice car, you may break your back to try to make enough money to buy one, and you may not get there for a while. During this time you will be miserable because you will not appreciate what you have, rather you will be kicking yourself for what you don't have. But if you do enough soul searching and work on yourself, you may come to the conclusion that you don't need that car after all, and all this time you have been creating a miserable situation for yourself while you could have been happy. Who is to be more admired, the man who has broken his back to attain his goal of driving a nice car, or the man who has found value in his life that is not predicated on material worth?
 
  • #36
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Furthermore, the very mind set of looking for something further can be destructive if taken too far. Let's extend the example above of the guy with the car. His mindset has been to live in the future, not the present-- he has been fixated on and concerning himself with things that he does not have but might eventually have in the future. Once he finally gets his car, will he sit back and be happy, or will he too locked into his forward-looking mindset and find a new object to pine for without which he cannot be content? If the latter continues indefinitely, then he will never be happy, because he will always be concerning himself with getting something in the future rather than living in and appreciating what he already has.

So even just the simple fact of wanting something is not necessarily bad. It's wanting something to be attained in the future so infatuously that it comes to the exclusion of appreciation of what you have in the present which is truly destructive to the psyche.
 
  • #37
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One does not have to be discontent to recognize their problems.
 
  • #38
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"One does not have to be discontent to recognize their problems."

sounds like something data or a vulcan would say. indeed. perhaps this is how God perceives the problems of the world...

(interesting that vulcans were able to mind meld, huh? i'd like to see spok try to mind meld with data. that would be amusing.)
 
  • #39
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Originally posted by Hurkyl
One does not have to be discontent to recognize their problems.
Nor does one have to concentrate on their problems to be content.
 
  • #40
this post was orignally the one you may read below.
 
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  • #41
We as humans would not bow to something unless we understood it, now God being the "ultimate" being we think he is is rather null, how can a being exist without begining? How do we know that God isn't just some kid on a computer like we are now connecting everything through switches and hacking through the system we know as life? Because we as people do not understand who,what,where,or when God was or is how can we bow to him? I as a being believe in my eyes and think clearly through my mind. I believe i would never bow to something without a who,what,where,when,or why. with only a few of these he still has no full meaning. To be blunt why bow to a man you know nothing about. I once again would never bow to such a being so this concludes my post. :cool:
 
  • #42
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I'd most likely kneel.

Anyhow, God didn't create us to suffer, but we do. And a lot of it has to do with the decisions we make towards ourselves and the world we live in. There's an abundance of resources in this world, but we undermine our own existence by not listening to the world and not listening to our desires with genuine care and thought. We've been given everything we need to live, and everything so that we may live in harmony with the world. But, it seems we want God to live for us by babying us and spoon feeding us so that we dont have to do a single thing. You call that living?

As we expand our boundries, we change habitats, and thus we're affected by different environments. Every environment provides the resources needed to survive, thus we must adapt to every situation as it comes if we're going to expand the nature of our being. No matter what environment we're in, we affect it while it affects us in return. When we move from one environment to another we change the balance, and if we fail to stabalize the changes, we are inturn infected with change. This is brought to us by bacteria and viruses that cause diseases and other such indisposition that's intended to stabalize the environment in one way or another -- either kill us, make us stronger, remove a competing organism, or a combination of events. There might even be a chain of events that occur.

The larger the change, the larger the chance for an epedemic. And, change becomes drastic when major issues are left unchecked over long periods of time becuase the natural order has shifted so out of line that certain aspects grew uncontrollablly wild and ran amuck leaving behind irreversible consequences. The Black Death is a prime example. If we want to live in this world, it's up to us to manage the environment and learn how it works.

Yes, diseases, viruses, and cancer affect humanity negatively in the short term, but what about the long term?

I know a lot can be overcome if we changed the way we lived.

In the end, we control our thoughts and emotions. For example, if you think you can be either happy or sad, then those are the emotion you will experience. However, if you think you can be either happy or happier. Then you'll at least always be happy. Basically it comes down to deciding who/what controls your thoughts and emotions. The world or you?

Obviously, one cant control what the world or what the throws at him/her, but that individual can control how he/she will deal with each situation by making a choice and learning how to deal with each choice and the consequence it unfolds.

Bottom line is that there are plenty of limits me impose on ourselves because of our mind sets and beliefs we hold. An open door is just a thought away if you have the will to get up and grab the handle to see what's on the otherside.

I mean you have to ask yourself. If you were at the gates of heaven, and you've always expected that in some way they would just open up for you, but that didnt happen, would you fail to open the gates for yourself?

How long would it take for you to try the door yourself?
 

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