News If Intelligent Design is exactly that, what's with all the design flaws?

[phcatlantis]

Actually this thread is about Intelligent Design, therefore, "God" isn't part of the discussion. Intelligent Design pushers are the ones claiming that something so perfect and complex as humans had to have had an "intelligent designer", hence the joke.

ID proponents are amazed by the complexity of creation period, but I've yet to meet one that claims that creation is a model of perfection. Perhaps the OP is attributing views to people that don't hold them. Either way, the point stands. The design criticism is meaningless absent some evident spec. You have no relevant blueprint to hold creation against and say "this didn't come out right."

 

[Evo]

ID proponents are amazed by the complexity of creation period, but I've yet to meet one that claims that creation is a model of perfection. Perhaps the OP is attributing views to people that don't hold them. Either way, the point stands. The design criticism is meaningless absent some evident spec. You have no relevant blueprint to hold creation against and say "this didn't come out right."

Precisely why the ID argument is ridiculous, there are so many better ways that humans, animals, nature in general could have been created that would prevent all of the problems faced every day that is is ludicrous to state that something this flawed was anything more than random chance.

 

[phcatlantis]

Precisely why the ID argument is ridiculous, there are so many better ways that humans, animals, nature in general could have been created that would prevent all of the problems faced every day that is is ludicrous to state that something this flawed was anything more than random chance.

Unless, of course, those "flaws" were anticipated and work to further the designer's ultimate objective. That takes us to the problem of evil and beyond the intended scope of this forum. My point is that without knowing the designer's plans, we have no means of determine what is the intended optimal configuration of creation; ID incredulity is resilient to such attacks and for good reason. I think we'd both agree that pointing out the obvious failures of imagination underlying the ID complexity argument stand on more solid ground rationally, although to tie this into Politics and World Events, ID increduilty is clearly persuasive in the United States.

 

[Evo]

Unless, of course, those "flaws" were anticipated and work to further the designer's ultimate objective. That takes us to the problem of evil and beyond the intended scope of this forum. My point is that the design criticism is not an effective one of ID, and critics are better off defending against the incredulity ID proponents express regarding creation's complexity.

There isn't "complexity" the way they describe it either. Reverse engineering of anything will always show you which steps were necessary to obtain the end result you are observing. It doesn't mean that the end result you're looking at was the "first" & "only" attempt. Again, ID is an empty, baseless bunch of hand waving meant to confuse the simple minded.

 

[phcatlantis]

There isn't "complexity" the way they describe it either.

If you mean proven irreducible complexity, then we agree.

Again, ID is an empty, baseless bunch of hand waving meant to confuse the simple minded.

I'm not at all interested in heaping derision on either camp, but yes...it is a powerfully persuasive argument in the public sphere that presents challengers to secular education policy advocates.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I have no problem with the philosophy of ID and the Theory of Evolution go make up your own minds whether Philosophy is more your bag than science, couldn't care less. It doesn't bother me that ID advocates try and abuse science to make it's position more shakey without coming up with anything scientific itself. Ironically it simply serves to strengthen sciences position because that which does not kill science makes it stronger.

The important thing is you should make your own mind up whether you want to believe in fairies or whether you want the universe to be infinite vaired and more than 6000 light years in size(creationist nonsense not ID but still) ID to me is popycock expounded by intelligent people who really should know better. If your asking us to believe in God fine, that's all part of faith to which I say don't know I'm agnostic. If your asking to discuss philosophy on a scientific basis then don't let the door hit you on the way out. It's fun to postulate but Science and philosophy are mutually exclusive: you can't have your cake and eat it.
Might as well say to them does god exist and walk away laughing

 

[phcatlantis]

The important thing is you should make your own mind up whether you want to believe in fairies or whether you want the universe to be infinite vaired and more than 6000 light years in size(creationist nonsense not ID but still) ID to me is popycock expounded by intelligent people who really should know better.

I imagine if you believe in fairies, you can believe that creation came into existence 6000 years ago with a 4 Gpc light horizon.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Yes some people really will believe anything though.

 

[phcatlantis]

Yes some people really will believe anything though.

Can't argue with you there, although I can't really get all that excitement over a disagreement about what went on 6,000 years ago.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

it's not about so much what happened 6000 years ago, it's about what happened before that And people get upset because they say something like life could not exist without God, do some vague philosophical trite mongering, expound free will and then mix it with some dubious research by a fringe scientist and claim it's all true. It's like some sort of magic show, lots of bluff and bluster but if you look close enough and think about it you can see you've been tricked.

Yes there are flaws with evolution and yes they are quite cavernous but they're less cavernous than the holes in creation "theory" or ID. There simply is no intelligence in Intelligent design

Exposing a flaw with evolution does not make the whole theory wrong, any more than saying God doesn't exist makes you right?

There isn't "complexity" the way they describe it either. Reverse engineering of anything will always show you which steps were necessary to obtain the end result you are observing. It doesn't mean that the end result you're looking at was the "first" & "only" attempt. Again, ID is an empty, baseless bunch of hand waving meant to confuse the simple minded.

Nice concise post, I agree I still see that: the eye couldn't come into being nonsense they put about. I've seen a pictured reconstruction of reverse engineering show in evolutionary terms thank you very much. More tea Vicar?

 

[phcatlantis]

it's not about so much what happened 6000 years ago, it's about what happened before that

Exactly. The question is, why should anyone really care what secularists or creationists believe happened more than 6,000 years ago?

 

[Orefa]

The question is, why should anyone really care what secularists or creationists believe happened more than 6,000 years ago?

Assuming this is not a rhetorical question...

Everyone wants to know how things work today. But understanding the present is based on the past because the past is all we have. There is no particular limit as to how far back we should go, it depends on the field of study. Many fields of study involve ranges far beyond 6000 years.

 

[Amp1]

I agree with Orefa. 6000 yrs. is more of a bible belt tote'n Christian perspective. Some proponents of ID hold a more informed view. In my case, I don't see any discrepancy with my understanding of ID and the idea of an expanding universe or multiverse. Nor do I think there is a problem with evolution and ID. In my understanding I believe ID supports evolution(or vice versa), order in chaos is a theme I've read about in books on Chaos Theory and when I first viewed a Mandalbrot set up close.

 

[ComputerGeek]

The "design" didn't change, humans have always been flawed. When God realized that Adam & Eve would eventually notice that they were starting to age, God made up a reason to explain it by saying they sinned and "kicking" them out before they caught on.

heh... good idea...

Adam: hmm.. you know eve... your boobs are sagging a bit.
Eve: well you know what... your boy's are starting to hit the water in the toilet.

God: Umm.. you guys... remember last tuesday when you ate that apple from that tree? Well recall that I told you not to eat from that tree?

Adam and Eve: uhh... no
God: Well, you were drunk that day.. the hockey game was on. anyway... since you broke my one rule, you have sinned, and that is why you are now aging and getting sick and such, now.. get out and don't let the gate hit you on your sagging old butts.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Precisely why the ID argument is ridiculous, there are so many better ways that humans, animals, nature in general could have been created that would prevent all of the problems faced every day that is is ludicrous to state that something this flawed was anything more than random chance.

yeah... like that entropy crap... WTF.. the creator could have made a universe that was a little easier to get energy out of.

 

[revelator]

No worries, it's probably only the Beta version. :D

 

[phcatlantis]

Assuming this is not a rhetorical question...

You'd be right. ;)

Everyone wants to know how things work today.

I'd say something about making sweeping generalizations, but okay.

But understanding the present is based on the past because the past is all we have.

And there's a lot of past between 6000 years ago and now. I wouldn't be surprised if there's enough past in that interval to satisfy most people's curiosity.

There is no particular limit as to how far back we should go, it depends on the field of study. Many fields of study involve ranges far beyond 6000 years.

Sure, but the question is why should anyone care about what creationists and secularists differ about insofar as it concerns things in the distant past?

 

[phcatlantis]

yeah... like that entropy crap... WTF.. the creator could have made a universe that was a little easier to get energy out of.

Could've, but doesn't mean he had to. That's what I mean; without a spec we can't determine how optimal creation really is insofar as the Christian God's plan is concerned.

 

[Orefa]

And there's a lot of past between 6000 years ago and now.

"A lot" is relative. This is still a minuscule amount of time for those who observe the movement of celestial bodies and calculate their positions billions of years ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's enough past in that interval to satisfy most people's curiosity.

True. Many people are not concerned about what happened fifty years ago. But not all.

Sure, but the question is why should anyone care about what creationists and secularists differ about insofar as it concerns things in the distant past?

I thoughts creationists didn't believe in a "distant past", only in the past from the point of creation, presumably 6000 years ago according to some. Obviously creationists would not care about what came before creation, and that's a big difference with what others believe. So isn't this an essential element of both belief systems, and reason enough to care?

 

[selfAdjoint]

I thoughts creationists didn't believe in a "distant past", only in the past from the point of creation, presumably 6000 years ago according to some. Obviously creationists would not care about what came before creation, and that's a big difference with what others believe. So isn't this an essential element of both belief systems, and reason enough to care?

Some years ago the creationists split into two factions: the young Earth creationists (YEC) believe in the traditional biblical chronology, around 6000 years since the creation. Old Earth creationists believe in geological time and processes, but deny evolution.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Peronally I believe both camps are living in denial to some extent, but that's just my opinion.

The problem I have with ID is that some to put it in a scientific framework for which it is ill suited. You can't argue about ID in the same breath as evolution without saying does God exist and I think we all know where that leads. Evolution=scientific theory: ID=philosophy, never the twain should meet.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Peronally I believe both camps are living in denial to some extent, but that's just my opinion.

The problem I have with ID is that some to put it in a scientific framework for which it is ill suited. You can't argue about ID in the same breath as evolution without saying does God exist and I think we all know where that leads. Evolution=scientific theory: ID=philosophy, never the twain should meet.

with the multi-verse theory of the universe, if everything that can happen does happen in any number of alternate universes, then our existence is inevitable. no irreducible complexity.

 

[Moonbear]

This week, an article in the Vatican newspaper has supported the argument that ID is NOT science. I'm providing links to the story from a variety of sources, though you can search "Intelligent Design and Vatican" and come up with numerous hits that all say the same thing, regardless of the news source you trust most.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17162341-13762,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/19/science/sciencespecial2/19evolution.htmlhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/18/ap/world/mainD8F7BDS03.shtml
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0600273.htm

I think this helps support what the scientists have been saying all along, Intelligent Design belongs in the realm of religion, not science, and even the religious (e.g., the Vatican) recognizes this, with the exception of a very small faction of U.S., fundamentalist, Christian groups.

 

[phcatlantis]

"A lot" is relative.

All right, a lot relative to the lifespan of a human being.

True. Many people are not concerned about what happened fifty years ago. But not all.

I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about people so concerned with what happened 6,000 years ago that they feel the need to ridicule others who don't share their beliefs.

I thoughts creationists didn't believe in a "distant past", only in the past from the point of creation, presumably 6000 years ago according to some.

6000 years ago is the distant past to me, and I reckon most people not concerned with the scale of time over secular geological and cosmology history.

Obviously creationists would not care about what came before creation, and that's a big difference with what others believe. So isn't this an essential element of both belief systems, and reason enough to care?

Nah, I don't think so. At least the creationists have this magnificent God thing to inspire commitment to their beliefs. But for the typical modern layman, I don't see what value they'd find in a debate over something that happened millenia before their language and way of life even existed.

 

[Orefa]

But for the typical modern layman, I don't see what value they'd find in a debate over something that happened millenia before their language and way of life even existed.

Ok. I wouldn't debate anyone on whether their reasons to care are good enough or not. A number of people care, for their own reasons. Your "typical modern layman" may lack such reasons. Meh.

 

[Evo]

All right, a lot relative to the lifespan of a human being.
I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about people so concerned with what happened 6,000 years ago that they feel the need to ridicule others who don't share their beliefs.

That's another reason why "young earth" creationists" are to be ignored. They picked that date based on the Bible. It's meaningless.

What does any of this have to do with ID?

 

[Amp1]

If Intelligent Design is exactly that, what's with all the design flaws?

Question: Is the design of the universe flawed? Is the way chemical reactions happen flawed? Are the natural laws flawed? All of that is considered a part of ID.

How could man have the capacity to learn and experience if they are perfect?

Is there one kind or type of perfection or is there different levels to it?

What could experiential perfection entail?

What is absonite perfection?

Can one imagine absolute perfection?

 

[jimmie]

Question: Is the design of the universe flawed?

Perhaps, the only "flaw" in the universe was your perception of the universe.

 

[ComputerGeek]

Question: Is the design of the universe flawed? Is the way chemical reactions happen flawed? Are the natural laws flawed? All of that is considered a part of ID.

How could man have the capacity to learn and experience if they are perfect?

Is there one kind or type of perfection or is there different levels to it?

What could experiential perfection entail?

What is absonite perfection?

Can one imagine absolute perfection?

Large systems that have a few set of rules can interact in highly organized ways.

I guess Clouds are intelligent or each were specifically designed by an intelligent being because of their highly organized and predictable behavior?

 

[Amp1]

Large systems that have a few set of rules can interact in highly organized ways.

There is order in chaos.

Jimmie,

Perhaps, the only "flaw" in the universe was your perception of the universe.

ComputerGeek,

I guess Clouds are intelligent or each were specifically designed by an intelligent being because of their highly organized and predictable behavior?

Funny, I didn't say anything about intellect...ComputerGeek. Jimmie, No one perceives the 'entire' universe unless you believe in an infinite personality.

I just asked a few questions that all. The question after the 'if' statement "...whats with all the design flaws" presumes there to be some volitional 'Architect'. But it seems to focus in on only a specific set - the set of elements classified as man. So, I figured I'd ask something like "Is the current expansion of the universe a flaw?". Maybe, it is still expanding so that there will be enough room for an infinite number of beings.