If there was steal between earth and the sun instead of a vacuum

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the hypothetical scenario of replacing the vacuum between the Earth and the Sun with solid steel. Participants explore the implications for heat transfer, insulation properties, and the resulting temperatures in a steady state. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and speculative reasoning about energy transfer in this altered environment.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that replacing the vacuum with steel would severely limit heat transference, potentially leading to a frozen Earth.
  • Others propose that steel would heat up and conduct heat to the Earth, suggesting that the Earth would be "cooked" due to the heat from the steel.
  • One participant raises a question about whether the sun could heat through 93 million miles of solid steel, drawing a comparison to the Earth's inner core temperature.
  • Several participants assert that a vacuum is the best insulator, but acknowledge that in a steady state, the presence of steel may not significantly alter the energy balance between the Sun and the Earth.
  • There is a discussion about the temperatures of the steel at various distances from the Sun, with some participants expressing uncertainty about the appropriate temperature values to use.
  • One participant mentions that the energy radiated from the Sun must equal the energy received at a distance, implying that the presence of steel would not change this energy flow significantly.
  • Another participant speculates that even with an insulator, the Sun would continue to heat up until the insulator fails, suggesting a dynamic equilibrium.
  • Some participants express disagreement about the effects of steel on heat transfer, with one asserting that heat would reach the Earth more effectively with steel present.
  • There is a suggestion that the Sun would be hotter in steady state conditions, raising questions about the implications of this change.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the effects of replacing the vacuum with steel. Multiple competing views remain, particularly regarding the implications for heat transfer and the resulting temperatures in a steady state.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the specific temperatures involved and the dynamics of energy transfer in this hypothetical scenario. There are unresolved questions about the behavior of steel as an insulator and its impact on the Sun's energy output.

marsh8472
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
I'm witnessing an argument elsewhere about whether a vacuum is a good insulator in space.

Person 1 said this:

Incorrect. If that lack of matter, which allowed the passage of energy in the form of light with great ease, was instead replaced with matter as dense as steel, heat transference would be, in comparison, severely limited. This planet would then be a frozen husk.

Person 2 said this:

So if steel was between us and the sun instead of vacuum the metal closest to the sun would be heated into hot gasses, the steal farther out would be heated to the point of liquid after that the steel would be solid but white then red hot the father you moved out.

The Earth's orbit would be somewhere between the liquid steel and the red hot steel, either way we would be cooked idiot.

I said this:

I know the R-value in terms of insulation increases as you increase the thickness of the material. I'm not sure if a sun could heat all the way through 93 million miles of solid steel. This is considering that the steel is surrounding the sun kinda like a Dyson's sphere.

The Earth's inner core is about the same temperature as the sun yet the core is not able to heat through to the outter layers of the earth.

I think this would do a good job blocking all of the suns radient heat and wouldn't be much good at heating up anything outside of it. Maybe this Dyson-like sphere might feel slighty warm to the touch on the outside?

what would really happen if the vacuum between us and the sun were replaced with steel?
 
Science news on Phys.org
I think a vacuum is the best insulator.

edit - but in the steady state, it may not make any difference. The sun would heat up the steel until its in equilibrium and then it would heat the Earth until the Earth is at equilibrium.
 
Academic said:
I think a vacuum is the best insulator.

edit - but in the steady state, it may not make any difference. The sun would heat up the steel until its in equilibrium and then it would heat the Earth until the Earth is at equilibrium.


Yes this is what I'm after, the steady state after the sun has been explosed to steel 63 million miles thick. Once equilibrium is reached, what would be the tempuratures along the steel sphere surrounding the sun. Given that the surface of the sun is around 6,000 Kelvin. This should be a relatively easy thing to calculate right?
 
Academic said:
I think a vacuum is the best insulator.

edit - but in the steady state, it may not make any difference. The sun would heat up the steel until its in equilibrium and then it would heat the Earth until the Earth is at equilibrium.

well actually according to this:

You might be surprised to know that the atmosphere of the Sun is actually hotter than its surface. As you rise above the surface of the Sun, the temperature rises in a region called the chromosphere. Just 2,000 km above the surface of the Sun, and temperatures have risen to 100,000 Kelvin. Above the chromosphere is a transition zone where temperatures get up to 1 million Kelvin. The outermost layer of the Sun's atmosphere is the corona, where temperatures get to several million degrees Kelvin. Scientists don't actually know why this region gets so hot, but they think it has something to do with magnetic reconnection, where the Sun's magnetic field lines get twisted up, break and then reconnect.

the atmosphere of the sun gets pretty hot so I'm not even sure what would be an appropriate value to use as a tempurature. It would be nice to have an equation where I can input my own core temperature and see the various tempuratures of the steel at distances from the sun.
 
I don't think it would have any effect in the steady state. Once you are in equilibrium it would be the same.

Consider the power radiated from the sun, just outside of its surface. This must be equal to the power being radiated at some far distance, due to conservation of energy. If you put something in between that won't change this, the sun is still pumping out energy and that energy will still flow out. (Im ignoring the possibility that the metal could reflect energy back into the sun, thus changing the equilibrium position)
 
I'm not sure it would make a difference. Surely the steel would take longer to transfer the heat to the Earth (through a vacuum it gets transferred at the speed of light), but once the heat started flowing, I would think it would continue to flow at the same rate.

I imagine even if we put the best insulator between us and the sun, the same thing would happen.

Remember, the Earth's interior is a set temperature, and it's not making energy. The sun IS making energy, and that energy has to go somewhere. If something is keeping that energy in, then the sun will simply get hotter until the insulator gets rendered useless.
 
Academic said:
I don't think it would have any effect in the steady state. Once you are in equilibrium it would be the same

Exactly.
 
But I think in the other way. I feel the Person 2 is right.
Assuming 'x' amount of energy is coming from Sun to Earth. Since nothing is there, vacuum is a perfect insulator and energy is only radiated, but if we assume steel is there, then it will conduct heat and so lot of heat will reach Earth isn't?
 
The sun would be hotter in steady state conditions. Does this make a difference?
 

Similar threads

Undergrad Cooling of a hot body in the vacuum of space
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
Undergrad Can Future Civilizations Use Dyson Spheres to Survive a Red Giant Sun?
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K
Undergrad How Big of an Object Orbiting Closer to the Sun Than Earth Could Be Overlooked?
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
Graduate The way heat is transferred from one object to another
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
Opening a portal to the center of the Sun
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
Undergrad What is Earth's future warming due to the Sun's increasing luminosity?
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
High School How does the Sun's magnetic field affect Earth's geomagnetic field?
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
4K
How would a Machine at the Heart of the World tidally lock the Earth?
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
1K
Graduate Difference between IR and heat
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
8K
Undergrad Earth Between 2 Suns: Time & Space Questions
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K