Ignoring boundary term in the action

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the treatment of boundary terms in the action within the context of general relativity, specifically when varying the Einstein-Hilbert action. Participants explore the conditions under which boundary contributions can be ignored, the implications of compact versus non-compact manifolds, and the historical context of these considerations in theoretical physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that boundary contributions can be ignored when the manifold is both without boundary and compact, referencing Wikipedia for this claim.
  • Others challenge the completeness of this assertion, emphasizing the need to consider both conditions of being without boundary and compact when discussing the applicability of Stokes' theorem.
  • A participant questions the physical implications of using closed versus open manifolds in relativity, seeking clarity on when each should be considered.
  • There is a discussion about the historical context of the Gibbons-Hawking-York boundary term and why early physicists may have overlooked it, with some suggesting that it relates to the nature of the spacetimes considered.
  • Some participants provide examples of spacetimes, such as Minkowski and Schwarzschild, to illustrate cases where the boundary term may be relevant or necessary.
  • There is a debate about the nature of variations in the metric for Minkowski spacetime, with some participants expressing confusion about how to vary quantities in a constant metric space.
  • Participants discuss the definition of compact manifolds and why Minkowski spacetime does not satisfy this definition, referencing previous discussions for context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the treatment of boundary terms, with multiple competing views on the conditions under which they can be ignored and the implications of compactness. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the necessity and implications of including boundary terms in various spacetime scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential misunderstanding of Stokes' theorem and the conditions under which it applies, as well as the definitions of compactness and boundary in the context of manifolds. The discussion also highlights the complexity of varying actions in spacetimes with different topological properties.

  • #31
What I mean is, "let the natural coordinates --just the label of the points of ##\mathbb{R}^2 \times \mathbb{S}^2##-- be ##(t,r, \theta, \phi)##. Now, let's consider a metric space, namely ##\mathbb{R}^4## with its usual metric."
 
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  • #32
davidge said:
What I mean is, let the natural coordinates --just label of the points of ##\mathbb{R}^2 \times \mathbb{S}^2##-- be ##(t,r, \theta, \phi)##. Now, let's consider a metric space, namely ##\mathbb{R}^4## with its usual metric.

Why do you want to do this? It makes no sense.

Also, you still haven't understood: you need to understand the properties of a topological space without using any embedding of that space in another space.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the point of continuing to repeat the same advice and have a discussion if you continue to ignore that advice.
 
  • #33
The OP question in this thread has been answered, and the thread is closed. @davidge if you want to ask questions about the topological concept of a manifold with boundary, you can do that in the appropriate math forum; but please take the time to work through a textbook first.
 

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