Impossible to lift the identity map on the circle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the impossibility of lifting the identity map on the circle ##S^1## to the real numbers ##R## through a covering map. Participants explore the implications of continuity, injectivity, and fundamental groups in this context, examining various approaches to the proof and the underlying topology involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that a continuous choice of angle function on the circle cannot exist, as it would require changing by 2*pi when going around the circle, which raises questions about continuity.
  • One participant notes the necessity of defining a topology on ##S^1## to discuss continuity, prompting a consideration of different metrics.
  • Another approach suggests that since the composition ##e \circ L## is injective, ##L## must also be injective, leading to the conclusion that ##L## is a bijection from ##S^1## to its image in ##R##.
  • It is proposed that the image of ##L## must be homeomorphic to ##S^1##, but since ##S^1## is compact and connected, the image must also be compact, leading to a contradiction regarding fundamental groups.
  • A later reply suggests that the last step involving fundamental groups may be overly complex and proposes a simpler contradiction based on the properties of intervals and circles.
  • Another participant elaborates on the use of induced maps on fundamental groups and the properties of covering maps to derive contradictions, emphasizing the connectivity of the spaces involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing viewpoints on the approaches to proving the impossibility of lifting the identity map, with no consensus reached on a single method or conclusion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to the problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of topology in discussing continuity and the implications of injectivity and compactness in the context of covering maps. There are references to fundamental groups and homeomorphisms, but the discussion does not resolve the complexities involved.

PsychonautQQ
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Suppose that L: ##S^1## ---> ##R## is a lift of the identity map of ##S^1##, where e is the covering map from ##R## to ##S^1##, where ##R## is the real numbers and ##S^1## is the circle.

Then the equation e * L = ##Id_{S^1}## (where * is composition) means that 2*pi*L is a continuous choice of angle function on the circle. it is intuitively evident that this cannot exist, because any choice of angle function would have to change by 2*pi as one goes around the circle, and thus could not be continuous on the whole circle.How does the angle function changing by 2*pi as one goes around the circle imply that it could not be continuous on the whole circle?
P.S. Crossing fingers for LaTeX to work out...
P.S.S. Woot!
 
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PsychonautQQ said:
Suppose that L: ##S^1## ---> ##R## is a lift of the identity map of ##S^1##, where e is the covering map from ##R## to ##S^1##, where ##R## is the real numbers and ##S^1## is the circle.

Then the equation e * L = ##Id_{S^1}## (where * is composition) means that 2*pi*L is a continuous choice of angle function on the circle. it is intuitively evident that this cannot exist, because any choice of angle function would have to change by 2*pi as one goes around the circle, and thus could not be continuous on the whole circle.How does the angle function changing by 2*pi as one goes around the circle imply that it could not be continuous on the whole circle?
P.S. Crossing fingers for LaTeX to work out...
P.S.S. Woot!
You need to have a topology defined on ##S^1 ## to be able to talk about continuity. Are you seeing ##S^1## as a metric space with the chordal? Subspace? etc. metric?
 
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Rather than using angles, I find it easier to approach the proof as follows:

Since ##e\circ L## is an injection, ##L## must be too. Therefore ##L## is a bijection from ##S^1## to I am ##L\subset \mathbb R##.

Since ##e\circ L=Id_{S^1}##, ##e^\dagger\equiv e|_{{\mathrm Im}\ L}## is an inverse map of ##L## and, as a submap of a covering map, is continuous. Hence ##\mathbb R## contains a homeomorphic image I am ##L## of ##S^1##. But ##S^1## is compact and connected, so I am ##L## must be too (by continuity of ##L##), from which we can deduce (omitting several steps) that I am ##L## is a closed interval.

But the fundamental group of a closed interval is the trivial group of one element, whereas the fundamental group of ##S^1## is isomorphic to the integers, so the image cannot be homeomorphic, which gives a contradiction, and we conclude that ##L## cannot be continuous.

On reflection, that last step uses some heavy machinery - fundamental groups - that may not be necessary. Let's try without that.

If L is continuous then we have a closed interval ##C=[u,v]\subset \mathbb R## that is homeomorphic to ##S^1## via ##L## and ##e^\dagger## that are each other's inverses. Can we get a contradiction from that?
Hint: think of how we can surgically 'disconnect' an interval and whether the same procedure works on a circle.
 
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Along what Andrew was saying, elaborating on both approaches, it if we use the induced map ## f_{*}## on the (first) fundamental group, we have ##f_{*}\ [a] := \[f{a]]=0 ## Then use the fact that if f is a covering map then the induced map of a covering map is injective, to get a contradiction. EDIT:

The map is given by ##p(x):=(sin 2\pi x, cos2 \pi x )##. Pull back an open set in the right ( or, equiv. left) half of ##S^1 ## to get a union of open intervals, each homeomorphic to ##S^1## (by definition of covering map) and restrict it to a compact set. Then the restriction to a compact set is a homeomorphism , using the simple but powerful result that a continuous bijection from Compact into Hausdorff is a homeomorphism, which cannot happen by what Andrew said, the connectivity number. Much nicer idea than my much clunkier proof.
 
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