Physics-Learner
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OmCheeto said:Even at the city level though, things can go wrong:
to me that is like saying that because a stove is hot, why not run into a forest fire.
OmCheeto said:Even at the city level though, things can go wrong:
WhoWee said:Are we still talking about tax rates?
http://www.lakeoswegoreview.com/opinion/story.php?story_id=129850215573478700", some history: El Paso(TEXAS)-based Mesilla Valley Transportation was awarded 752 tax credits worth $4.5 million to equip its truck fleet with the latest fuel-saving technology under Oregon’s Business Energy Tax Credit program.
...
But upon closer examination, Mesilla Valley Transportation’s trucks were spending less than 1 percent of their miles on Oregon’s highways.
And here’s the rest of the story: While MVT qualified for the credits, it didn’t need them because it didn’t have a tax liability in Oregon. In turn, it sold the credits to another company. MVT profited from the credits, while another company paid less in taxes. Meanwhile, there was virtually no environmental benefit in Oregon.
In short, Oregonians were fleeced out of tax revenue.
WhoWee said:...guess not?WhoWee said:Are we still talking about tax rates?OmCheeto said:Raise taxes on the wealthy!
Physics-Learner said:if we want to really change our situation, we must also change the system that controls it.
in my mind, that presents 2 large and difficult tasks -
1) a complete redesign of our govt and constitution, such that its goal is really about helping its constituency.
2) a plan to get from here to there. i am not foolish enough to think that i could establish a perfect govt, and then the following day install the complete version. it would take decades to carefully dismantle the current govt, while installing a new one. in fact, i think this task would be considerably more difficult than the task of designing the new govt.
Applying the principle "as much as possible" means that only the people who get hit pay for the protection.Physics-Learner said:were you being sarcastic, regarding the police call ? i will assume that you werent, and answer accordingly. we (within a localized area) all benefit from police protection. so we all pay for it, much like an insurance policy. everyone pays a small amount to counter the large risk that we know a few will hit.
however, insurance rates vary by area. so too our payments of police. the greater need for police, the greater the localized population pays.
this is a generalized principle. something that we attempt to apply to everything as much as possible.
Physics-Learner said:leaders ? you got to be kidding me !
let me repeat. the system of govt is not and has never been about helping the general population. this goes for any other govt that has ever existed on this planet.
govt is a system that is formed by the wealthy to control the population. we get brainwashed into many things, like them being our leaders.
you ask who i could trust ? most of the population. the thing is that in order to truly establish a system of govt to truly help the people, the goal has to be to establish a system of govt to truly help the people.
there are many intelligent and educated people in our country who could get the job done, if given a chance. the biggest task that lies before us is removing the wealth and greed from our govt.
if the goal of govt had really been about the betterment of its people, we simply would not be in the situation that we are in today. we can look outward at other countries, and see the terrible oppression of govt, in african countries, and muslim world.
but we don't see here in our own country. sure, it is not as extreme. and because it is so large, it is not quite as obvious. part of the reason why i want whatever govt we do have to be as localized as possible. localization equates to accountability.
i don't know what is happening in timbuktu, nor do i have any real chance of finding out. but i can see what is happening 10 miles away.
WhoWee said:Basically what you are saying is let the people decide - correct? We should trust election results - like the ones last Fall that swept the TEA Party candidates into the House - the people spoke and their voice should prevail? I understand now - it makes sense now - thank you.
I don't think it's too far off topic, if it's the Libertarian aspect you are referring to.Physics-Learner said:regarding off topic posts - i have been on many forums. once in awhile, a group of posters may intentionally mess up a discussion.
but most of the time, "off-topic" posts occur for a reason.
i was sorry to see the "believe" thread locked, as i thought it was interesting discussion.
this thread was started regarding a way to help our economy, by talking about tax rates.
but just how much can really be posted about it ?
i started the "off-topic" post - mainly as a way to throw some real light on our problem.
interest in off-topic posts suggest that the idea has more interest. much like regular people talking. it starts off with one idea, that eventually serves as a springboard for other ideas.
if evo or another monitor thinks we should talk just about tax rates, i will exit this thread, as i have no desire to go against any rules. nor do i have any desire to talk about which bucket to use to bail water, as i see my boat about to sink from the glut of water that is continuing to pour in.
In favor of increasing taxes on the wealthy
(spelling correction mine)Ivan Seeking said:The real question is, what percentage of a person's income goes to all taxes paid, directly or indirectly?
Ronald Reagan said:Well, there are 151 taxes now in the price of a loaf of bread–it accounts for more than half the cost of a loaf of bread.
wiki said:In some jurisdictions of the United States, there are multiple levels of government which each impose a sales tax. For example, sales tax in Chicago (Cook County), IL is 10.25%—consisting of 6.25% state, 1.25% city, 1.75% county and 1% regional transportation authority. Chicago also has the Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority tax on food and beverage of 1% (which means eating out is taxed at 11.25%).
if we want to really change our situation, we must also change the system that controls it.
in my mind, that presents 2 large and difficult tasks -
1) a complete redesign of our govt and constitution, such that its goal is really about helping its constituency.
2) a plan to get from here to there. i am not foolish enough to think that i could establish a perfect govt, and then the following day install the complete version. it would take decades to carefully dismantle the current govt, while installing a new one. in fact, i think this task would be considerably more difficult than the task of designing the new govt.
Physics-Learner said:no, you apparently do not understand at all.
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that your implied premise is true, how the heck have you managed to convince yourself that power can't be gained through other means? Strip the government of power, and I find it very difficult to believe whatever fills the void will be as friendly to the general public.Physics-Learner said:we have to reduce govt, thereby reducing the control of the wealthy
mheslep said:? The use of the term 'void' implies PL was taken to he say eliminate the government thus embracing anarchy, rather than reduce the size of government which has grown dramatically by any historical measure. Taking reduce to mean destroy seems to be a common overstatement of a reasonable proposal, dramatized recently by the fallacious 'Tourists in Fabulous Government Free Somalia' commercial in circulation. Heck, even if the Federal government actually was dissolved and its 3 million non uniformed employees eliminated, the remaining states still have http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs042.htm" - hardly a 'void'.
It does, but with such a mobile population and dependency on interstate commerce I have to think that having a strong federal government is one of the reasons why America became such a good place to live for just about everybody in it.WhoWee said:It's hard to imagine why 19 million state and local workers can't get the job done with (perhaps) 1 million more federal employees - 20 million people attending to 350 million sounds more than reasonable - doesn't it?
I don't think that reducing the federal government would necessarily reduce the control of the wealthy. Isn't it in part because of the wealthy's exploitation of the poor that government was increased in the first place?Physics-Learner said:we have to reduce govt, thereby reducing the control of the wealthy ...
This, along with other such predictions by many is just a bet on 'Red 11' and then spinning the wheel, signifying nothing, without a good rationale.WhoWee said:I want to go on the record with a prediction.
WhoWee's prediction 8/8/2011: if the DJI drops below 8,500 - our "leaders" will clamor for hefty increases to capital gains rates and the media will sing in praise of their initiative.
mheslep said:This, along with other such predictions by many is just a bet on 'Red 11' and then spinning the wheel, signifying nothing, without a good rationale.
If it was me making $20K/year, I'd care about how much I made last year, and how much I was likely to make the next, and the year after, etc. The heck with how much Bill Gates is making as if I was entitled to some of his take, as long as my family and neighbors have an opportunity to improve.EWH said:Perhaps some data would help?
About a year ago, I tried to figure out what the distribution of income was from IRS figures...
I doubt this. For example, wasn't it, at least in part, a relaxation of governmental oversight that allowed the proliferation of toxic investment and over-leveraging that led to the financial meltdown?mheslep said:I think PL's correct, reducing government size and scope would lessen the influence of the wealthy and connected over society. I'll go further and say its a necessary, if not sufficient condition to accomplish this.
ThomasT said:I doubt this. For example, wasn't it, at least in part, a relaxation of governmental oversight that allowed the proliferation of toxic investment and over-leveraging that led to the financial meltdown?
How would reducing governmental control lessen the influence of the wealthy?
No. But I was asking about the reassignment of hundreds of people away from oversight on the financial sector during the latter part of the Bush administration. If this didn't actually happen, then what I read was a lie.WhoWee said:If you relax the rules of lending and the wholesale re-financing of that debt on one hand - then mandate who to loan funds to - is that really a reduction of Government control (aka de-regulation)?
ThomasT said:No. But I was asking about the reassignment of hundreds of people away from oversight on the financial sector during the latter part of the Bush administration. If this didn't actually happen, then what I read was a lie.
And the question remains: how might reducing governmental control lessen the influence of the wealthy. Because it seems to me that it would increase it.
Physics-Learner said:govts are established by the wealthy.
look at the beginning of ours. it was thought that the commoner wasnt smart enough to have any ideas, so they were to rely on their representatives.
just look at history. go back to the roman empire. they continued to conquer and grow, until they got to big to handle it all. just who do you think was doing this, and benefiting from it ? the common folk ? of course not. it was the wealthy.
why do you think there is a drive towards a one world economy ?
the wealthy want to control as much as possible. the bigger the govt, the more dependent the population, the more control the govt gets.
it is very simple. it has been done this way for the past 2000 years.
it just takes some years of living to see the bigger picture.
I submit that it was the government creation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that allowed the admittedly inevitable market bubbles to become catastrophic in this case.ThomasT said:I doubt this. For example, wasn't it, at least in part, a relaxation of governmental oversight that allowed the proliferation of toxic investment and over-leveraging that led to the financial meltdown?
Take Microsoft. Before the government's lawsuit against them MS spent essentially nothing on lobbying for two decades. Now, I read MS's lobbying budget is $100M/year. The point being that many years ago most corporations did not bother to have any 'government relations' department - it was a waste of money to bother with a small, far away federal government. Now, all of the Fortune 500 do, and not to eliminate regulation but in many cases to increase it. Why? Because the the threat to big business shareholders is not so much government but competition from new business, as it has always been. Hence the reason why one will see a monster company like GE enter every heavily regulated industry one can imagine - energy, finance, healthcare, yet it has no presence in the free for all industries like the dot com internet.How would reducing governmental control lessen the influence of the wealthy?
mheslep said:Hence the reason why one will see a monster company like GE enter every heavily regulated industry one can imagine - energy, finance, healthcare, yet it has no presence in the free for all industries like the dot com internet.