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Innocent killer hippies convicted of murder?

  1. Sep 17, 2007 #1
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 17, 2007 #2

    mgb_phys

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    I love how even though they have been found innocent they will still be placed on a watch list and inspected just in case.
    Meanwhile feed you offspring their own weight in burgers every day until everyone under 18 is obese and it's the industries fault for advertising then to you.
     
  4. Sep 17, 2007 #3
    Just so you all know...
    this is not the same case as the "killer hippies convicted of murder" thread
    sorry if the title was misleading

    It is just a good example of when children need protection from child protective services, and of the ignorance surrounding vegetarianism and veganism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
  5. Sep 17, 2007 #4

    russ_watters

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    Is there any independent confirmation of this? Any real evidence? Ie, blood work on the family and CO readings from inside the house. The photo shows the furnace exhaust and the furnace intake. That air does not go into the house.

    This looks like crackpottery to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
  6. Sep 17, 2007 #5
    They werent allowed any official Carboxy-Hemaglobin test.
    Although I dont know if it would be difficult to do an independent one.


    Both the house intake and furnace intake are located next to the furnace exhaust.
    here for video proof:
    http://www.yourrightsmatter.com/Images/Thaxton/ThaxtonVideoFurnace.wmv



    http://www.yourrightsmatter.com/ThaxtonFamilyUpdate.htm

    Most babies are vegans. Breast milk, fruits, cereals, vegetables - I dont know of any babies who eat pork or beef.
    Funny note - beechnut has a apples and chicken baby food

    "crackpottery"

    goodnight
     

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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
  7. Sep 17, 2007 #6

    russ_watters

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    As I said before, houses do not have fresh air intakes. They are not required by building codes because the occupancy is low and houses have operable windows. That photo is of the furnace combustion air intake. I'm certain of it - I'll take a picture of mine tomorrow, it is identical. (actually, mine doesn't have the bird screen - it really should)
    I know I said "independent" - what I really meant was reputable. Do you have any reputable sources for this? All I see so far is crackpots lying about things that are obvious to people who know about those things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
  8. Sep 18, 2007 #7
    The rectangular louvered vent looks like a typical crawl space vent to me. Some parts of the country use crawl spaces in lieu of basements with furnace equipment in the crawl or attic space.

    There could be conditions where the furnace exhaust could be sucked into the crawl space (different pressures cause by wind) as installed in the photo. The fumes could them rise up into the home even if the floor was insulated and had a continuous vapor barrier.

    I'm just an architect, what do I know? I have to say I know nothing about this house or it's HVAC system, and have never seen it before.

    No professional opinion unless we have more information.
     
  9. Sep 18, 2007 #8

    Moonbear

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    The only sources I can find on line that talk about this story, including the one in the OP, are based on a press release written BY THE FAMILY. That is clearly a biased source.

    A carboxy-hemoglobin test AFTER recovery would be useless. However, if a child was brought to an ER sick enough to have the symptoms of CO poisoning, there are likely other tests that would have ruled in or out the diagnosis...blood gas tests and blood pH, CBC.

    Vit B12 is deficient in vegan diets, so if they are refusing to give the kids supplements, then that is still likely to continue.

    And, while severe vit B12 deficiency and CO poisoning share some common symptoms (which is what makes the report crackpottery that a non-physician is seeing some common symptoms and deciding it must be CO poisoning when there doesn't seem to be any medical report to back that up), some indicators from the article already suggest it is more likely a vitamin deficiency than CO poisoning. In particularly, that the white blood cell counts were low (the story reports that the infant was first diagnosed with leukemia). Carbon monoxide poisoning shouldn't affect the white cell count. And, since all we are told is "blood counts were low," that would indicate that the red cell count was also possibly low (otherwise physicians usually specify white or red counts if it's not a global problem). In CO poisoning, red cell counts will be elevated as the body produces more red cells to compensate for the reduced oxygen capacity of those already present, while in nutrient deficiencies.

    However, a vit B12 deficiency WOULD make a person MORE susceptible to CO poisoning since their oxygen carrying capacity is already compromised by insufficient mature red blood cells. So, it doesn't mean CO didn't necessarily play a role, but possibly that the child's nutrient deficiencies may have made him much more susceptible to it.
     
  10. Sep 18, 2007 #9

    Moonbear

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    :uhh: You are aware that breast milk is NOT a vegetable, right? Of course, if the mother had a slight nutrient deficiency as well, she may not have provided adequate nutrients through her breast milk either...assuming she was breast feeding. Or, it's possible the symptoms appeared when she stopped breast feeding and the infant no longer had any source of Vit B12, and insufficient reserves at such a young age.
     
  11. Sep 18, 2007 #10

    russ_watters

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    D'oh - somehow I missed that in the photo. I though they were talking about the furnace intake that is a foot below the exhaust. Regardless, the point still stands - houses do not have fresh air intakes. I believe that you are right that that is for ventilation of a crawl space.

    Something else about gas heat - it produces virtually no carbon monoxide unless you choke the airflow to the furnace. That's why houses can use open-flame gas cooking surfaces without killing the occupants.

    I did have a client in a ground-floor apartement with a porch at the bottom of a 4-story vertical shaft which was used for furnace intake air. One of the apartments on the ground floor had it piped wrong and was exhausting through there. The pipe was also not pitched correctly and filled up with water, causing the furnace to choke. I measured something like 4ppm of CO in the exhaust before it choked and 30 while it was partially choked. The atrium registered a high CO2 concentration (2500ppm, iirc) while the CO did not register at all. This is likely because CO2 is heavier than air and sits at the ground, while CO is the same weight as air and will diffuse out faster (expecially when heated).

    I'm an HVAC engineer.
     
  12. Sep 18, 2007 #11
    On a small commercial project my engineer put the intake at least 10 feet away from the exhaust. The combustion intake and fresh air intake were in a thru-wall specially designed single concentric pipe.

    You are correct, most houses don't have fresh air intake. I think the ones that do are negative pressure systems often with HEPA filters for under concrete ground slab application (along the perimeter). This would be similar to a large church sanctuary HVAC system as well.
     
  13. Sep 18, 2007 #12

    russ_watters

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    I have actually done a few high-end residences with commercial-grade kitchen exhausts that had make-up air for them (with an automatic damper so it would only be used when the exhaust is on). But the house in this case is unlikely to be equipped with such a thing.

    The 10 feet thing is specified by code, btw.

    I'm not sure why any house would purposely be put under negative pressure. If very good filtration is what you are looking for, then positive pressure is what is needed. But that's clean room type stuff.
     
  14. Sep 19, 2007 #13
    It was about five years ago, I guess I pulled the wrong term out of the hat. What ever it was the filter was demanded by the owner after the contractor and I sized the mechanical closet together. Changes is what I remember the most, the room had to be a couple of feet larger - doubled in size. The air had to go down, so I guess that makes it a "high pressure" system?

    The idiot put his piano next to the west facing window, so screw it, I can only lead the horse to water.
     
  15. Sep 19, 2007 #14
    I wasnt looking for a debate over the feasibility of CO poisoning, mainly because I have no authority whatsoever in this case.

    I do appreciate the input from russ and kach, i needed another point of veiw.

    Even though I understand the futility of arguing for CO poisining, I am concerned over the actions taken gainst the Thaxton family, and feel they represent a problem in the States.
    Namely, the forced weaning and tube - feeding of the child, forced separation of the family, and refusal to consider evidence for CO poisining.
     
  16. Sep 19, 2007 #15
    Seems like grounds for a lawsuit.

    Is there a lawyer in the house?
     
  17. Sep 19, 2007 #16

    russ_watters

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    Maybe just a high pressure system - meaning a bigger fan to push the air through the thicker filter.
     
  18. Sep 19, 2007 #17

    russ_watters

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    The way the article reads, they haven't provided any evidence for CO poisoning. If there really is a CO issue there, the necessary evidence (already discussed) really isn't that hard to get (not to mention, it would be easy to fix).
     
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