Iraqis tell the reality of Iraq .

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  • #26
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Also ask yourself who in Iraq actually has internet access, or knows english well enough to post
Time for me to come out of solitude.

I'm not sure about the Internet connection but don't you think it's a little ignorant to make that conclusion about Iraqi people having limited knowledge of the English language?
 
  • #27
member 5645
Originally posted by Sting
Time for me to come out of solitude.

I'm not sure about the Internet connection but don't you think it's a little ignorant to make that conclusion about Iraqi people having limited knowledge of the English language?
Bravo :)
 
  • #28
FZ+
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Originally posted by Sting
Time for me to come out of solitude.

I'm not sure about the Internet connection but don't you think it's a little ignorant to make that conclusion about Iraqi people having limited knowledge of the English language?
Can people please actually try to understand what I am saying?

Repeat again: I am not saying Iraqi people are stupid.

Just look at it objectively - the chances are, in a foreign country, the prevalence of knowledge of language of another country is not extremely high. I doubt many of us post on Arabic websites, right? Certainly some do, but this limits the size of the sample significantly, and so the small number that do post do not neccessarily represent the whole of the population. The evidence comes from the clear disconnect from the poll - which we can assume, if it was competently done, to have been conducted privately in the individual's mother tongue, and the posts, which were carried out in a foreign language, on a public board that few may indeed have access to.

Thus, this is an illustration of the inherent limitations of taking the postings, or blogs of the few, as the beginning and end of it. Certainly, they say an aspect of the reality of Iraq, but for the full reality, I'd rather trust the poll - which gives us a much more complex, and ambiguous picture. Wouldn't you?

Since I am the major UK poster here, would you conclude 100% of the UK population are against the war, and automatically rubbish Bush's claims of support from the UK?
 
  • #29
Nereid
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Since I am the major UK poster here, would you conclude 100% of the UK population are against the war, and automatically rubbish Bush's claims of support from the UK?
Well, if FZ+ is merely 'the major UK poster', we'd be wise to consider others - who are they? Well, we've lost Adrian (or so it seems), and ...
 
  • #30
member 5645
Originally posted by FZ+

Just look at it objectively - the chances are, in a foreign country, the prevalence of knowledge of language of another country is not extremely high. I doubt many of us post on Arabic websites, right?
Hardly a comparison. English is the de facto standard for business and international government communication.
Despite that, I do understand what you are saying ;)
 
  • #31
Zero
Originally posted by phatmonky
Hardly a comparison. English is the de facto standard for business and international government communication.
Despite that, I do understand what you are saying ;)
See, that sort of skews the data a bit, doesn't it? If English is the standard for business and international trade, than the number of Iraqi bankers and businessmen speaking English would likely be higher than the number of English-speaking fruit market owners, right?
 
  • #32
member 5645
Originally posted by Zero
See, that sort of skews the data a bit, doesn't it? If English is the standard for business and international trade, than the number of Iraqi bankers and businessmen speaking English would likely be higher than the number of English-speaking fruit market owners, right?
Not really. While I can't speak for Iraqis, I can speak for Iranians via my clients, friends, and (through marriage)relatives. All of them spoke English long before they came to the US. They learned it to speak with all of the foreigners. The Taxi drivers would make much more to know English to Taxi businessman around the country. Despite sanctions, I would imagine that English as prevalent (if not more) as it was in the 80's when we funneled many many businessmen and contractors through the country,

EDIT- and thinking further about this. If it were, in your idea, just the banker and businessmen,under Saddam is where they would have been made affluent and learn English (if you guys are considering that to be something mostly only the affluent would do). Why would a year of bombing and reconstruction, and the removal of a system that made them affluent, make them happy? It would seem to me that those who were affluent before, based just on monetary status now, would be less happy (and the polls reflects this through the Sunni vote)
 
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  • #33
FZ+
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The Taxi drivers would make much more to know English to Taxi businessman around the country.
Ok, then we have taxi drivers. Speaking isn't the same as writing, of course, and the US has been accusing Saddam of skimping on education for years... Still not exactly a clear demographic of the Iraqi population as a whole, eh?

You see, you clearly don't understand my point. The point is that as a matter of fact, there is an inconsistency between the posts, which you commented as 100% positive, and the poll, that I am inclined to trust more, which gives only a 57%. That is a matter of fact, and what I am trying to do is explain this discrepancy. What's your explanation, then? That Sunnis don't know how to type?

The only alternative that appears open to me is an active or passive censorship of anti-invasion postings, which is rather less palatable, no?
 
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  • #34
member 5645
Originally posted by FZ+

The only alternative that appears open to me is an active or passive censorship of anti-invasion postings, which is rather less palatable, no?
Or the simple fact that there is a much lesser percentage of people that think things are worse off, and therefore it's less likely someone negative willl actually take the time to go into one of the (3?)internet cafes that Iraq has open as of last month.
You guys are putting WAY too much pressure on the posts, which I only put to back up the fact that there are actually people REALLY behind the numbers, that think Iraq is better now than before (and so you could see soem of their reasoning). The fact remains though, that there is no obvious coorelation between speaking English and being affluent. There is also no obvious coorelation through internet usage and being affluent, since many of the cafes allow free access at certain time.
 
  • #35
member 5645
Why don't you guys try getting back to the poll? Zero, you were nazimod last night atleast.
 
  • #36
Zero
Originally posted by phatmonky
Why don't you guys try getting back to the poll? Zero, you were nazimod last night atleast.
Good idea.
 
  • #37
FZ+
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Originally posted by phatmonky
Or the simple fact that there is a much lesser percentage of people that think things are worse off, and therefore it's less likely someone negative willl actually take the time to go into one of the (3?)internet cafes that Iraq has open as of last month.
You guys are putting WAY too much pressure on the posts, which I only put to back up the fact that there are actually people REALLY behind the numbers, that think Iraq is better now than before (and so you could see soem of their reasoning). The fact remains though, that there is no obvious coorelation between speaking English and being affluent. There is also no obvious coorelation through internet usage and being affluent, since many of the cafes allow free access at certain time.
43%. That percentage is 43% that think things are unchanged, and 21% who think things are worse of. In the blogs you gave, if things were representative, 2 would have thought things were no better, and at least one would be telling us that things have become worse. The same would be true of the postings. So, where is the cause of this, then, if it is not just one of access and personal inclination/exposure to the west?

The statistics do not lie, do they? Until I see that 43%, not to mention that 21%, you cannot wave the statements of iraqi bloggers as an absolute and exclusive description of reality. A situation where things are "unchanged" after the way would also represent a failure for the invasion, and the approval has fallen, showing things, as predicted, are getting worse under current mismanagement.
 
  • #38
kat
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Originally posted by FZ+
43%. That percentage is 43% that think things are unchanged, and 21% who think things are worse of. In the blogs you gave, if things were representative, 2 would have thought things were no better, and at least one would be telling us that things have become worse. The same would be true of the postings. So, where is the cause of this, then, if it is not just one of access and personal inclination/exposure to the west?
I gave the blogs..he gave the quotes..but neither were all inclusive.

It is interesting ...now that you mention it..that on of the blogs given (the link posted in the post following mine) is very negative. I believe her family were ba'athist and she complains quite regularly.
Of my links, if you read through them..you will find Salam Pax, who does not neccesarily think things are better. The others, are a mixed bag they all make negative statements and positive statements in regards to Iraq today compared to yesterday.

I will say..that I would not bet the farm on that poll. But then, I feel that way about all polls. They do make a nice conversation piece though, don't they?

I also don't think that we should be speaking for Iraqi's, they do have a voice..and I don't think the media is allowing it to be heard as they should. There are Iraqi news sources online along with blogs, I think we can grasp some idea of their feelings and how things are going by reading those. I don't think they are neccesarily as negative as the U.S. and Europian media are letting on.
 
  • #39
schwarzchildradius
It reminds me of the cartoon -- The Hun is at the Peasant's door:
"So would you say you highly approve, somewhat approve, approve, or disapprove of Attilla? Do you feel strongly about that?"
 
  • #40
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FZ+ said:
The statistics do not lie, do they? Until I see that 43%, not to mention that 21%, you cannot wave the statements of iraqi bloggers as an absolute and exclusive description of reality.
You're right, they don't lie, but they do skew. I hate statistics. Because of their percentage-based nature, they give this impression that they are unbiased. Even if there was no bias whatsoever in selecting participants, the odds suggest it's rediculous that those participating in the poll actually represent the diversity of opinions among the whole. Until I see a poll involving so many Iraqis that the majority in the poll constitutes the majority of the entire population, I will continue to take such statistics with a grain of salt.

You're right, blogs and quotes are not absolute descriptions of reality, but neither is your statistic.
 

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