Is a fourier transform a rotoation?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the conceptual relationship between the Fourier transform and rotation in vector spaces, particularly in the context of waveform representation and the implications of Parseval's theorem. Participants explore whether the Fourier transform can be understood as a rotation, especially in finite versus infinite dimensional spaces.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a textbook that suggests the Fourier transform represents a rotation between time-domain and frequency-domain coordinate systems, raising the question of identifying an "axis of rotation."
  • Another participant argues that the concept of an "axis of rotation" is only meaningful in three-dimensional vector spaces and discusses the implications of eigenvalues in rotation matrices.
  • A participant questions whether the Fourier transform can be understood as a rotation beyond the analogy of length preservation in infinite dimensions, suggesting a focus on discrete Fourier transforms to limit the dimensionality.
  • Some participants mention Wikipedia articles that describe the Fourier transform as a 90-degree rotation in the time-frequency domain and relate this to quantum physics concepts of position and momentum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the concept of rotation to the Fourier transform, with some supporting the analogy while others challenge its validity, particularly in infinite dimensions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nature of the relationship between the Fourier transform and rotation.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential misunderstanding of dimensionality in relation to the Fourier transform and the implications of eigenvalues in higher-dimensional spaces. The discussion does not reach a consensus on how to interpret the Fourier transform in terms of rotation.

RoyLB
Messages
23
Reaction score
0
From my undergraduate textbook: Circuits, Signals, and Systems by Siebert, p 453


====================================================
Consider the two principal waveform representations schemes ...

[tex] x(t) = \int x(\tau)\delta(t - \tau)d\tau [/tex]

[tex] x(t) = \int X(f)e^{j2\pi f t}df [/tex]

If we consider the set of delayed impulses as determining one set of orthogonal vectors and the set of complex exponentials as determining another set, then [itex]x(\tau) d\tau[/itex] and [itex]X(f) df[/itex] are the components of [itex]x(t)[/itex] along the corresponding coordinates. The frequency-domain representations of [itex]x(t)[/itex] thus amounts to picking a coordinate system that is rotated from the time-domain coordinate system. And Parseval's Theorem

[tex] <br /> \int x^2 (t) dt = \int |X(f)|^2 df<br /> [/tex]
is just a statement of the fact that the length of a vector is independent of the coordinate system in which it is described
====================================================

Is this true? If so, then it should be possible to the find the axis of rotation, right? How does one go about that? Does the question make sense?

Thanks
Roy
 
Physics news on Phys.org
An "axis of rotation" only makes sense in a three-dimensional vector space. e.g. to make sense of it you could do the following:

Form the rotation matrix. Its eigenvalues will be one of the following:
  • Three 1's
  • One 1, two -1's
  • One 1, one complex-conjugate pair of norm 1

The eigenspace associated to -1, or the space generated by the eigenspaces for the complex-conjugate pair describe a plane that is rotated by the rotation.

The eigenspace associated to 1 is a line that is fixed by the rotation.


The fact that the line uniquely determines a plane perpendicular to it is a unique feature of three-dimensional Euclidean space. That the list of possible sets of eigenvalues is so short is another unique feature of three-dimensional Euclidean space. (there simply aren't enough dimensions for the behavior of a rotation to be complex*)


In finite dimensions, the space breaks up into a fixed space (which can be zero-dimensional in even dimension!), and planes that are rotated. (And some extra cases where the eigenvalues are repeated) I don't know if we can even say that in the infinite dimensional case you're considering.


*: used as an English word rather than a technical term[/size]
 
Last edited:
Hurkyl said:
An "axis of rotation" only makes sense in a three-dimensional vector space.

Hurkyl,

Thanks for responding.

Perhaps my question was too literal. If this relation is true, is there some was to understand the transform as a rotation, besides the Parseval theorem being analogous to preserving a "length" in some infinite dimensional space? What if we restricted ourselves to a discrete time / discrete Fourier transform, to keep the dimensions finite?

- Roy
 
FWIW, wikipedia's article lists the eigenvalues and one eigenbasis for the Fourier transform.
 
Hurkyl said:
FWIW, wikipedia's article lists the eigenvalues and one eigenbasis for the Fourier transform.

Hurkyl,

Thanks for the link. I really should look more closely at wikipedia. According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracti...pretation_of_the_Fractional_Fourier_Transform

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_canonical_transformation,

the Fourier transform is a rotation by 90 deg in the time-frequency domain. This may be related to the concept that position and momentum of Fourier transforms of one another according to quantum physics theory.

- Roy
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
12K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
7K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
12K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K