Is action at a distance possible as envisaged by the EPR Paradox.

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The discussion centers on the possibility of action at a distance as proposed by the EPR Paradox, with participants debating the implications of quantum entanglement. It is established that while entanglement has been experimentally demonstrated, it does not allow for faster-than-light communication or signaling. The conversation touches on various interpretations of quantum mechanics, including the Bohmian view and many-worlds interpretation, while emphasizing that Bell's theorem suggests no local hidden variables can account for quantum predictions. Participants express a mix of curiosity and skepticism regarding the implications of these findings, acknowledging the complexities and ongoing debates in the field. Overall, the conversation highlights the intricate relationship between quantum mechanics and the concept of nonlocality.
  • #541
my_wan said:
... there's a few things to be learned from this debate, you can take to the bank. The mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem is irrefutable. The fact of this legitimacy does not translate to any fact of legitimacy about any given interpretation of what it means...

The mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem is irrefutable?

Does Bell use P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H)?

Is P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H) valid when A and B are correlated?

Are A and B correlated in EPR settings?
 
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  • #542
JenniT said:
The mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem is irrefutable?

Does Bell use P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H)?

Is P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H) valid when A and B are correlated?

Are A and B correlated in EPR settings?

That depends on how you define H, the nature of the hidden variable that is presumed to be involved in determining the correlation effects between A and B. I would certainly say H is overly restrictive, even in a 'realistic' sense, but others disagree.

The physical validity doesn't have to be legitimate for the mathematical validity to hold, and models which are limited to H, as it is defined here, are indeed invalid. But I was satisfied with that on Neumann's argument alone. That's only the simplest unabashed classical approach anyway. There are plenty of issues with pre-quantum classical physics, from many areas not just restricted to QM, to justify modifications. Even if it still manages to remain essentially classical in character from some perspective. Even Newton had his critiques over the 'magical' elements of classical theory, and background dependence almost certainly has to go.
 
  • #543
DrChinese said:
2. The quality of entanglement can be measured by how close you come to perfect correlations when setting up the experiment. So you might expect that there is always a mix of ES> + PS> statistics (Entangled and Product). Ideally, ES is 100%. But clearly, that ideal is not met in this experiment and the result will be a deviation from the QM predicted rates accordingly. But not enough to cross back into the Local Realistic side of the Bell Inequality.
It is not exactly deviation from QM. You see QM covers this PS> state too. So you don't need to resort to some other idea (LHV or anything) in any case.

I have posted this formula couple of times but maybe it will make more sense now in conjunction with real experimental setup.
P_{VV}(\alpha,\beta) = \underset{product\; terms}{\underline{sin^{2}\alpha\, sin^{2}\beta + cos^{2}\alpha\, cos^{2}\beta}} + \underset{interference\; term}{\underline{\frac{1}{4}sin 2\alpha\, sin 2\beta\, \mathbf{cos\phi}}}
This is a bit reduced (without \theta_{l} factor) equation (9) from paper - http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0205171/" that describes type-I PDC source.
The same way can be described type-II PDC. I found this out from Kwiat et al "New High-Intensity Source of Polarization-Entangled Photon Pairs" (I won't post the link to be on the safe side with forum rules about copyrights). There equation (1) is:
|\psi\rangle=(|H_{1},V_{2}\rangle+e^{i\alpha}|V_{1},H_{2}\rangle)/\sqrt{2}
that is basically the same equation but in more QM format.

As you can see from this first formula cos\phi acts as coefficient in range from -1 to 1 and accordingly this interference term can change it's weight between maximally negative, none at all and maximally positive. QM does not place any restrictions on that.
So if interference term becomes zero and photon state reduces to completely local realistic product state it's still covered by this QM description.
Physical interpretation in QM about this cos\phi coefficient is that it characterizes transverse and longitudinal (temporal) walkoffs.

As experimenter you have a goal to get this cos\phi maximally close to either 1 or -1 and if you do not succeed for some reason then interpretation says you have not compensated those walkoffs to satisfactory level.

DrChinese said:
So are you saying that the detectors somehow influence this? I don't follow that point or what you think the implications would be. It is the setup that determines things, of which the detectors are an element. But their efficiency shouldn't matter to that setup.
It's hard for me to say something about your comment that efficiency shouldn't be a factor. That's because since some time for me it's not the question of "if" but rather "how". And to be precise it's not only efficiency of detectors but rather coincidence detection efficiency of the setup as whole.

But more to the point, I interpret this interference term as correlation in samples of detected photons meaning that they are uneven. If this unevenness is similar we have positive interference term, if this similarity is inverted we have negative interference term and if we have this unevenness in independent "directions" we don't have interference term. Obviously for efficient detection any "direction" in unevenness of sample is no more detectable.

This loss of information for efficient detection can be illustrated with example like this. Let's say we have a box with different objects in it. We have hole in the box and if we shake the box some objects fall out. Afterward we can look at the objects that are outside the box and objects that are left inside. So we can find out some probabilities whether particular object is more likely to fall out of the box or stay inside. If we always shake the box until all the objects fall out of the box (efficient detection) we loose any information about that falling out probability.
 
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  • #544
DevilsAvocado said:
What’s left!? How does QM solve this unsolvable problem?? I’m going crazy over here... :cry:

May be I missed something. What is a problem? Nature is not local. I am ok with it.
 
  • #545
JenniT said:
The mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem is irrefutable?

Does Bell use P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H)?

Is P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H) valid when A and B are correlated?

You do NOT need the probability formula to get the Bell result. Despite some of the posts you may have seen, you can get it a variety of ways. For example: if you accept that:

0<=P(A|H)<=1
0<=P(B|H)<=1
0<=P(C|H)<=1

Then you can derive the formula too. A, B and C can be correlated in any way you like. Because then you have:

0<=P(AB|H)<=1
0<=P(AC|H)<=1
0<=P(BC|H)<=1

and then:

0<=P(ABC|H)<=1

But as I have shown previously, this value is less than -.1 (i.e. less than -10%) for some ABC combinations if the QM predictions are substituted. Obviously, a negative value for P(ABC|H) contradicts the above.
 
  • #546
Dmitry67 said:
May be I missed something. What is a problem? Nature is not local. I am ok with it.

Hi Dmitry67, the 'problem' is that you believe in MWI, which I don’t, unless you show me a "Hello world!" form one of those >centillion1000 parallel universes! :wink:
 
  • #547
JenniT said:
The mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem is irrefutable?
Wrt the inequalities it is.

JenniT said:
Does Bell use P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H)?
Yes.

JenniT said:
Is P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H) valid when A and B are correlated?
No.

JenniT said:
Are A and B correlated in EPR settings?
Yes.
 
  • #548
I wonder if this will make the counterfactual assumptions clearer?

You have:
0<=P(A|H)<=1
0<=P(B|H)<=1
0<=P(C|H)<=1

From which this is derived:
0<=P(AB|H)<=1
0<=P(AC|H)<=1
0<=P(BC|H)<=1

But the P(BC|H) case was never performed in tandem, rather constructed from actual measures P(AB|H) and P(AC|H), and even P(BC|H) for good measure, because the correlations come in pairs. Suppose P(AB|H) and P(AC|H) was constructed from a dataset of 1500 correlations pairs each, 3000 photon count "elements of reality" per detector, 6000 total. Now when you combine B and C, you are adding 1500 pairs of "elements of reality" (3000 total) that never actually existed simultaneously but presumably could. By counterfactually assuming they simultaneously occurred in the same dataset, if C can detect the same "elements of reality" (photon) in some, but not all, cases, it becomes impossible to get the "elements of reality", as defined by the measurements, to equal the "elements of reality" as defined by the number of photons.

This is only a valid concern, if and only if, C is sometimes selecting photons that would have also been selected by B, and visa versa, such that if emitted photons AND detections are both to labelled "elements of reality", the count between the two cannot possibly match. In the combined counterfactual case, B and C can effectively be viewed as the exact same detector with 2 different detection settings at once.

If Malus' Law is a valid in defining the odds of a single photon being detectable with two different detector settings, such that a photon with a specific polarization has a 50% chance of passing a polarizer set 45 degrees to its 'actual' polarization, then the derivation of the mismatch in these two ways of counting the "element of reality" almost exactly matched the negative probabilities derivation.

The only difference is that you take the counterfactual "element of reality" set BC, which is 2 settings of the same detector counting the same set of photons, and subtract the total of both the AB and AC set, and you have the percentage of the detector event defined "elements of reality" minus the photon count defined "elements of reality". Z - (X + Y). Divide by 2 to get a per detector percentage, B and C.

I'm not trying to argue this atm, but it would be cool to make the case clear enough to get some effective criticism.
 
  • #549
DevilsAvocado said:
Hi Dmitry67, the 'problem' is that you believe in MWI, which I don’t, unless you show me a "Hello world!" form one of those >centillion1000 parallel universes! :wink:

Whats about BM?
Wavefunction is, in any case, non-local.
So MWI or not, nonlocality is inevitable.

I see causality as emergent property of macroscopic world. In that case a-causality is more fundamental, and we are just lucky that our world has causality in IR (macroscopic) limit.

It is curious that the opposite way of thinking is common: "wow, how nature can be non-local! I can't believe!". For me the deeper mystery is why it is causal.
 
  • #550
my_wan said:
If Malus' Law is a valid in defining the odds of a single photon being detectable with two different detector settings, such that a photon with a specific polarization has a 50% chance of passing a polarizer set 45 degrees to its 'actual' polarization, then the derivation of the mismatch in these two ways of counting the "element of reality" almost exactly matched the negative probabilities derivation.

The only difference is that you take the counterfactual "element of reality" set BC, which is 2 settings of the same detector counting the same set of photons, and subtract the total of both the AB and AC set, and you have the percentage of the detector event defined "elements of reality" minus the photon count defined "elements of reality". Z - (X + Y). Divide by 2 to get a per detector percentage, B and C.

You cannot get "close" to the negative probability derivation as long as you cling to the idea that:

0<=P(A|H)<=1
0<=P(B|H)<=1
0<=P(C|H)<=1
and Malus.
 
  • #551
Dmitry67 said:
Whats about BM?


The future for de Broglie–Bohm theory doesn’t look overwhelmingly bright:
http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529"
Anton Zeilinger et.al
...
Here we show by both theory and experiment that a broad and rather reasonable class of such non-local realistic theories is incompatible with experimentally observable quantum correlations. In the experiment, we measure previously untested correlations between two entangled photons, and show that these correlations violate an inequality proposed by Leggett for non-local realistic theories. Our result suggests that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments, unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned.


Add this to Bell’s own conclusion in 1964 (my emphasis):
http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Compact.pdf"
John S. Bell
...
VI. Conclusion
In a theory in which parameters are added to quantum mechanics to determine the results of individual measurements, without changing the statistical predictions, there must be a mechanism whereby the setting of one measuring device can influence the reading of another instrument, however remote. Moreover, the signal involved must propagate instantaneously, so that such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant.


Then we have to reject Einstein, SR and RoS + the physical experiment by Anton Zeilinger + introducing a global NOW (that we know doesn’t work in e.g. GPS satellites)...

Dmitry67 said:
It is curious that the opposite way of thinking is common: "wow, how nature can be non-local! I can't believe!".

It’s not the non-locality in itself that brings 'problem'. It’s the fact that Bell's theorem proves that nature at microscopic QM level must be a-casual/true random/stochastic/non-deterministic, i.e. Local Hidden Variables doesn’t work either in theory or experiment.

Now, if we bring in a "FTL mechanism" as an explanation to what goes on in Bell test experiments – that doesn’t work either! Since a "FTL mechanism" brings cause* to Bell's theorem, where cause is forbidden!

Get it?

(*Alice sends a FLT-message to Bob to tell him what to do, in respect of what she just did.)
 
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  • #552
But the assumption is that P(C|H) is a partial subset of P(B|H) and P(A|H), and partially a set of distinctly unique events. But given that the argument is not being followed, rather that if I cling to what I rejected in the argument, I must be wrong, I have nowhere to go.
 
  • #553
my_wan said:
But the assumption is that P(C|H) is a partial subset of P(B|H) and P(A|H), and partially a set of distinctly unique events. But given that the argument is not being followed, rather that if I cling to what I rejected in the argument, I must be wrong, I have nowhere to go.

If a man is Texan, he can also be a college graduate and a musician. These are not exclusive elements of reality. That is my A, B and C. If I can have these attributes simultaneously, then they are realistic. I would expect that their likelihood would between 0 and 100% inclusively. But if I found out that Texas musicians were less than -10% likely to be college graduates, that would cause me to question things. We like our music here. :biggrin: But we're not so dumb as to appreciate college THAT little.
 
  • #554
DrChinese said:
You do NOT need the probability formula to get the Bell result. Despite some of the posts you may have seen, you can get it a variety of ways. For example: if you accept that:

0<=P(A|H)<=1
0<=P(B|H)<=1
0<=P(C|H)<=1

Then you can derive the formula too. A, B and C can be correlated in any way you like. Because then you have:

0<=P(AB|H)<=1
0<=P(AC|H)<=1
0<=P(BC|H)<=1

and then:

0<=P(ABC|H)<=1

But as I have shown previously, this value is less than -.1 (i.e. less than -10%) for some ABC combinations if the QM predictions are substituted. Obviously, a negative value for P(ABC|H) contradicts the above.

Thank you DrC. I hoped that Bell's mathematics might be clearer to my_wan if we began with fundamental mathematical principles. Is there any good reason why not to begin in that way?
 
  • #555
ThomasT said:
Wrt the inequalities it is.

Yes.

No.

Yes.

Thank you ThomasT, but I am confused. Probably I misunderstand your stand on BT? Are you saying Yes (it is irrefutable, it stands forever), Yes, No, Yes? Is your position logical with your other posts? What about

Q1. Are A and B correlated in EPR settings?

Q2. Does Bell use P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H)?

Q3. Is P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H) invalid when A and B are correlated?

Q4. Is the mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem debatable?
 
  • #556
DevilsAvocado,

As I remember Demistifier's arguments, BM is compatible with QM, it is Lorentz-invariant, even in fact there is 'hidden' preferred frame. I don't like it, it is urgly, but it is consistent with all experiments. May be you can ask Demistifier about the interpretation of Bell in BM framework, but I am sure there are no problems.

In any case, SM, BM and MWI is all what is left. SM=giving up updarstanding, BM=ugly, conclusion is...
 
  • #557
Dmitry67 said:
DevilsAvocado,

As I remember Demistifier's arguments, BM is compatible with QM, it is Lorentz-invariant, even in fact there is 'hidden' preferred frame. I don't like it, it is urgly, but it is consistent with all experiments. May be you can ask Demistifier about the interpretation of Bell in BM framework, but I am sure there are no problems.

In any case, SM, BM and MWI is all what is left. SM=giving up updarstanding, BM=ugly, conclusion is...

BM isn't much different to MWI since both are derived from a wavefunction of the universe, which is a bit unappealing, since it seems clear that quantum effects become a statistical non-effect for large particle systems at anything beyond molecular scales. (Although, by intelligent design we will probably improve on nature and build large quantum computers in the near future)

They should have just stuck to de Broglie's original idea of a real guiding wave or even Shrodinger's naive interpretation of a real wave entity, except these days we can validly propose that its existence is generated from signals in other dimensions (or other non-classical space) since all sorts or weird extra dimensions are now being proposed (even if they are compactified, they're extra dimensions, once you propose that I don't see a philosophical reason for not allowing that a noncompactified extra dimension exists which we haven't detected or modeled yet). So we may have a real local theory, except it's not local in einsteinian (classical) space. QED :wink: :smile:
 
  • #558
JenniT said:
Thank you DrC. I hoped that Bell's mathematics might be clearer to my_wan if we began with fundamental mathematical principles. Is there any good reason why not to begin in that way?

I agree entirely. I think it is convenient to follow some of the different ways to get to the Bell result, because otherwise the lingo itself can stand in the way. Bell was writing for a very specific audience, whom he knew could follow his wording. He probably assumed they knew EPR as well. So he did not feel the need to spell everything as a non-professional might prefer.

We have a pair of entangled particles, Alice (and her default measurement setting A) and Bob (and his default measurement setting B). We also have a counterfactual setting C (could be associated with either Alice or Bob, doesn't really matter).

Bell says that in a hidden variable theory (and we will use the symmetric case for simplicity):

Alice@A = Bob@A
Alice@B = Bob@C
Alice@C = Bob@C

And further Bell says that these must be simultaneously true if realism applies. Which is just to say that there are hidden variables which exist independently of the act of observation. If the above is true, then there are 8 possible permutations for Alice@A,B or C (using Heads/Tails notation):

HHH, HHT, HTH, HTT, TTT, TTH, THT, THH

There is no particular requirements for their relative frequencies (yet), but we want the sum of these 8 to add to 100% and we want each individual to be within the range 0 to 100%. Again, this is just the realism requirement.

Is the above agreeable?
 
  • #559
JenniT said:
... I hoped that Bell's mathematics might be clearer to my_wan if we began with fundamental mathematical principles.

JenniT, I’m sure you mean well, but I can guarantee you that mathematics is not a problem for my_wan. :wink:
 
  • #560
Dmitry67 said:
conclusion is...

Ta-da! Aaaaaand the winner is... MWI ! :smile:

As I said, show me one 'postcard' from any of those +centillion1000 parallel universes, and I’m on the train! :biggrin:
 
  • #561
DevilsAvocado said:
JenniT, I’m sure you mean well, but I can guarantee you that mathematics is not a problem for my_wan. :wink:

And yet I get confused by the references my_wan makes to ensembles that add to more than 100%. Maybe JenniT's point is worthy, and if not for my_wan, maybe someone else. Because if you start from a local realistic perspective, you must agree to the mathematical ground rules before Bell makes sense. EPR said these ground rules are "reasonable" as an initial hypothesis, and I agree.

So the first point is: Imagine 360 degrees in a circle. For any of the 360: If you ask the same question of Alice and Bob, you get the same answer. Of course, saying there are 360 possible questions is arbitrary, you could just as easily say a billion. The important thing is that these entangled pairs are polarization clones of each other. We don't know the "how", but we can see that they are.
 
  • #562
DrChinese said:
And yet I get confused by the references my_wan makes to ensembles that add to more than 100%.

That’s a reasonable point. Not to mess things up, I think it’s safest if my_wan answers the question regarding 'confusion' on "more than 100%".
 
  • #563
Now once you agree that Alice and Bob are ENTANGLED, i.e. they are clones of each other and always yield the same answer to the same question, then you ask: HOW can that happen?

There are 3 basic ways:

a) All measurements give the same answers. We know this isn't true because ONLY entangled pairs have this property, and the answers appear random. So "lucky" guesses are ruled out. If you have collusion between the observers, then this can be gamed. So you have to convince yourself this case is not happening. This is usually handled by a proper experimental setup.

b) Alice and Bob are clones of each other, but otherwise are completely independent. They are local/separate and must therefore have ALL the answers encoded in advance a la EPR. This is the case Bell addresses.

c) Alice and Bob are in communication with each other somehow, and so when Alice answers a question, she shares her answer with Bob. Bell does not address this case. Now, there are other ways to get this result besides instantaneous action-at-a-distance, such as retrocausal and other interpretations. I don't want to discuss any of these in this thread if it can be avoided.
 
  • #564
DrChinese said:
And yet I get confused by the references my_wan makes to ensembles that add to more than 100%.

It's not just 'an' ensemble. In defining an "element of reality" via realism, the argument involves not only the ensemble, but the the set of individual elements that defines that ensemble, and the differences that occur when you switch from detector event "element" counts and individual photon defined count of elements of reality. If the detector count is double counting certain photons, through couterfactual assumptions, then I am removing "ensembles that add to more than 100%". Only the elements of my ensembles is photons, not detector events. To use detector events the photon double counts must be calced, which your negative probabilities can be interpreted as a count of. I've already pointed out your negative "probabilities" are not "probabilities, but case instances, i.e., elements, derived as individual case instances from a probability function. As well as the fact that the definition of those case instances are: when a detection occurs in one, but not neither or both, detectors.

Thus your proof depends on the existence of negative [strike]probabilities[/strike] possibilities. Whereas the interpretation I suggested removes them when the set of individual elements that defines the ensemble is properly counted.
 
  • #565
JenniT said:
Thank you ThomasT, but I am confused. Probably I misunderstand your stand on BT? Are you saying Yes (it is irrefutable, it stands forever), Yes, No, Yes? Is your position logical with your other posts? What about

Q1. Are A and B correlated in EPR settings?

Q2. Does Bell use P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H)?

Q3. Is P(AB|H) = P(A|H).P(B|H) invalid when A and B are correlated?

Q4. Is the mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem debatable?

You asked if the mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem is irrefutable. The mathematical form of Bell's theorem is the Bell inequalities, and they are irrefutable. Their physical meaning, however, is debatable.

In order to determine the physical meaning of the inequalities we look at where they come from, Bell's locality condition, P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H).

Then we can ask what you asked and we see that:
1. A and B are correlated in EPR settings.
2. Bell uses P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H)
3. P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H) is invalid when A and B are correlated.

Conclusion: The form, P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H), cannot possibly model the experimental situation. This is the immediate cause of violation of BIs based on limitations imposed by this form.

What does this mean?

P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H) is the purported locality condition. Yet it is first the definition of statistical independence. The experiments are prepared to produce statistical dependence via the measurement of a relationship between two disturbances by a joint or global measurement parameter in accordance with local causality.

Bell inequalities are violated because an experiment prepared to produce statistical dependence is being modeled as an experiment prepared to produce statistical independence.

Bell's theorem says that the statistical predictions of qm are incompatible with separable predetermination. Which, according to certain attempts (including mine) at disambiguation, means that joint experimental situations which produce (and for which qm correctly predicts) entanglement stats can't be viably modeled in terms of the variable or variables which determine individual results.

Yet, per EPR elements of reality, the joint, entangled, situation must be modeled using the same variables which determine individual results. So, Bell rendered the lhv ansatz in the only form that it could be rendered in and remain consistent with the EPR meaning of local hidden variable.

Therefore, Bell's theorem, as stated above by Bell, and disambiguated, holds.

Does it imply nonlocality -- no.
 
  • #566
my_wan said:
It's not just 'an' ensemble. In defining an "element of reality" via realism, the argument involves not only the ensemble, but the the set of individual elements that defines that ensemble, and the differences that occur when you switch from detector event "element" counts and individual photon defined count of elements of reality. If the detector count is double counting certain photons, through couterfactual assumptions, then I am removing "ensembles that add to more than 100%". Only the elements of my ensembles is photons, not detector events. To use detector events the photon double counts must be calced, which your negative probabilities can be interpreted as a count of. I've already pointed out your negative "probabilities" are not "probabilities, but case instances, i.e., elements, derived as individual case instances from a probability function. As well as the fact that the definition of those case instances are: when a detection occurs in one, but not neither or both, detectors.

Thus your proof depends on the existence of negative [strike]probabilities[/strike] possibilities. Whereas the interpretation I suggested removes them when the set of individual elements that defines the ensemble is properly counted.

I guess I have a different idea of what double counting is. If Alice is counted once and only once, that is good and is not double counting. On the other hand, Alice may be "counterfactually" counted an infinite number of times, and this too is OK as long as the H case and the V case add to 100% for each of the counterfactual cases.

I don't know what you are implying when you say something about "when a detection occurs in one, but not neither or both, detectors". We are discussing the ideal case, so every photon is counted somewhere a single time.
 
  • #567
ThomasT said:
In order to determine the physical meaning of the inequalities we look at where they come from, Bell's locality condition, P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H).

Then we can ask what you asked and we see that:
1. A and B are correlated in EPR settings.
2. Bell uses P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H)
3. P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H) is invalid when A and B are correlated.

This is not correct because it is not what Bell says. You are mixing up his separability formula (Bell's 2), which has a different meaning. Bell is simply saying that there are 2 separate probability functions which are evaluated independently. They can be correlated, there is no restiction there and in fact Bell states immediately following that "This should equal the Quantum mechanical expectation value..." which is 1 when the a and b settings are the same. (This being the fully correlated case.)
 
  • #568
DevilsAvocado said:
Ta-da! Aaaaaand the winner is... MWI ! :smile:

As I said, show me one 'postcard' from any of those +centillion1000 parallel universes, and I’m on the train! :biggrin:

Show me objects behind the cosmological horizon in the telesope, or I claim that nothing exists behind it :)

Do you believe that Universe ends behind the horizon just because we can't see these obejcts (and will never see in some models)? No, you extrapolate the laws of physics to these areas. Exactly what I do.
 
  • #569
Dmitry67 said:
Show me objects behind the cosmological horizon in the telesope, or I claim that nothing exists behind it :)

Do you believe that Universe ends behind the horizon just because we can't see these obejcts (and will never see in some models)? No, you extrapolate the laws of physics to these areas. Exactly what I do.

I don't think these are equivalent situations. You don't need anything to exist beyond the particle horizon in cosmology to explain what you see within the particle horizon, GR is a local theory (in the sense of differential geometry). In MWI the existence of the extra universes is germane to the explanation.

The main problem I have with MWI is that pointed out by Adrian Kent, "Theory Confirmation in One World and its Failure in Many" (http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/Events/The_Clock_and_the_Quantum/Plenary_Talks/ ). If you really believe MWI, then you have to admit that there's no way you can ever safely infer the "correct" distribution for experimental outcomes because there's no way to know which branch you reside in.
 
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  • #570
I have what to reply, but I don't want to hijack the thread with MWI.
But what is your personal opinion, how do you explain everything?
 

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