News Is Anyone Truly in Control Amidst the Ukrainian Crisis?

[DennisN]

About the snipers , with all the things the Yanukovych could have used against the protesters , and after all this time of protesting and understanding that he is literally out of office and will probably be out of it for the rest of his life , then he just decides that , oh well let's shoot some unarmed nurse in a big red cross shirt on her back , yeah that will be a great policy witjh all the western media filimig it live.
Do you even realize how absurdly this sounds?

I don't understand what's absurd about that (except the killings, of course). Have you got the timing right? According to wikipedia, people have been killed between 22 January and 22 February (and onwards). Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan[/PLAIN]

and

"Yanukovych left the capital on 21 February, fleeing to Crimea first, and further to southern Russia. [...] On 22 February 2014, members of parliament found that the president was unable to fulfill his duties, and they set an election for May 25 to select his replacement."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych

Have I (and Wikipedia) got the dates wrong?

 

[Crazymechanic]

It's not about the protesters that have died during the riots and struggles , that's normal as in every such out of control situation someone gets hurt , we are talking about special trained and equipped people from special vantage points targeting both innocent individuals , medics and the police all at the same time, shooting at them from a sniper rifle in the neck with lethal shots and doing it professionally,

this is not your typical rebel , revolutionary guy with a molotov cocktail in his hands level.This is a level of someone who knows what his doing.
the conclusions are up to you.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Regarding trustworthy media, I think I've found the final unquestionable truth about all this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef73gh8GLBU
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ef73gh8GLBU

It's all Obama's fault! Of course! He didn't do anything about the Russo-Georgian War 7–16 August 2008, and yet the whole world knew he would be in office January 20, 2009!

And then we have all this fracking & hacking that could scare Putin to death. What did Obama do? Nothing!

... if Obama at least could get out of those 'Mom Jeans'... and show some strength... that would make bear hunting Putin change his mind... but no... not even this...


P.S: We also have to remember that this political oracle, wearing the commonsense gene, can see Russia from her house, which makes the pinpoint analysis even deeper and more trustworthy. In 2008 she knew Russia was to invade Ukraine next!

3,045 views in two days.

[Note: strong irony warning]

 

[russ_watters]

...NATO and CIA uses the situation in Ukraine to gain regional control and move in with a pro west government...

Do you have any evidence of that? If not, it is conspiracy theory and you need to stop posting such things. It is against our rules.

 

[lisab]

It's not about the protesters that have died during the riots and struggles , that's normal as in every such out of control situation someone gets hurt , we are talking about special trained and equipped people from special vantage points targeting both innocent individuals , medics and the police all at the same time, shooting at them from a sniper rifle in the neck with lethal shots and doing it professionally,

this is not your typical rebel , revolutionary guy with a molotov cocktail in his hands level.This is a level of someone who knows what his doing.
the conclusions are up to you.

Do you have any evidence of that? If not, it is conspiracy theory and you need to stop posting such things. It is against our rules.

I agree with russ. Crazymechanic, you need to back up your claims with *mainstream* sources. When we allow people to post things that they just "know in their gut", threads on hot-button topics like this start to look like the garbage you can read anywhere on the internet.

 

[edward]

Regarding trustworthy media, I think I've found the final unquestionable truth about all this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef73gh8GLBU
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ef73gh8GLBU

It's all Obama's fault! Of course! He didn't do anything about the Russo-Georgian War 7–16 August 2008, and yet the whole world knew he would be in office January 20, 2009!

And then we have all this fracking & hacking that could scare Putin to death. What did Obama do? Nothing!

... if Obama at least could get out of those 'Mom Jeans'... and show some strength... that would make bear hunting Putin change his mind... but no... not even this...


P.S: We also have to remember that this political oracle, wearing the commonsense gene, can see Russia from her house, which makes the pinpoint analysis even deeper and more trustworthy. In 2008 she knew Russia was to invade Ukraine next!

3,045 views in two days.

[Note: strong irony warning]

OMG is Sarah Palin the best Russian expert Fox could come up with? Can she still see Russia from her back porch?

 

[SteamKing]

Regarding trustworthy media, I think I've found the final unquestionable truth about all this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef73gh8GLBU
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ef73gh8GLBU

It's all Obama's fault! Of course! He didn't do anything about the Russo-Georgian War 7–16 August 2008, and yet the whole world knew he would be in office January 20, 2009!

And then we have all this fracking & hacking that could scare Putin to death. What did Obama do? Nothing!

... if Obama at least could get out of those 'Mom Jeans'... and show some strength... that would make bear hunting Putin change his mind... but no... not even this... P.S: We also have to remember that this political oracle, wearing the commonsense gene, can see Russia from her house, which makes the pinpoint analysis even deeper and more trustworthy. In 2008 she knew Russia was to invade Ukraine next!

3,045 views in two days.

[Note: strong irony warning]

What Sen. Obama did or did not do in the summer of 2008 is irrelevant. After Jan. 20, 2009, he became the President. Has his view of world affairs and geopolitics changed since 2008, vis-a-vis Russia? It doesn't appear that it has. Even when he debated Romney during the 2012 presidential campaign, it didn't appear that the possibility of threats other than terrorism registered with Obama.

When his national security advisers met recently to discuss the developing situation in the Ukraine, Obama didn't even bother to attend the meeting. Perhaps Obama is wishing that this particular headache would just go away, but as President, it is his job to make sure that the interests of the United States are protected, and that cannot be ensured by wishing and hoping.

It was Hillary Clinton who sent a botched 'Reset' button to Putin after she became Sec. of State. There is no indication Putin sent a 'Reset' button of his own to Washington, DC by return mail.

Palin raises a valid point about the energy pipelines traveling west from Russia thru the Ukraine to Europe. There was a big controversy when gas pipelines were first constructed connecting the two regions. The sale of energy resources to the west allowed the USSR to collect a continuous stream of hard currency which kept the regime propped up economically. After the fall of the USSR, the exports of energy provide a continuing revenue stream which Putin can use to paper over the otherwise dismal economic prospects of the Russian Federation. If there is a long-term disruption of energy deliveries to western Europe because of trouble in the Ukraine, that could spell trouble for most of the governments there, not to mention economic hardship for the population. It's certainly in Europe's interest that affairs be settled quickly.

To be sure, Palin is not the only one who is making these points. But the people in charge of foreign policy in the US govt. should on top of these situations and not looking like deer caught in the headlights.

 

[jim hardy]

Earlier you asked if RT is a credible source (which seems to have 'disappeared').

RT is funded by the federal budget of Russia, and normally it's only lies & propaganda 24/7, with lies being the major part the last days (which makes even Bill O'Reilly look like a choirboy).

Actually, if you read his autobiography Bill OReilly was a choirboy.

Personally I'm turned off by all the news sources.
I got to like Fox during the Bush years because they seemed most respectful of the President, which i think we all should be. And i detested the HuffPost and its ilk(including NPR) for the horrible disrespect they heaped on him.
Well, come 2009 and the roles reversed , so I'm no longer a fan of Fox either . They heap it onto Obama just like the left did to Bush.

They've all got their agendas. At least RT's is clear.
However - Methinks Abby Martin doth protest too much.

old jim

 

[OmCheeto]

Earlier you asked if RT is a credible source (which seems to have 'disappeared').

RT is funded by the federal budget of Russia, and normally it's only lies & propaganda 24/7, with lies being the major part the last days (which makes even Bill O'Reilly look like a choirboy).

Lately they've even shown nuclear explosions in the 'commercials'!

The exception to the rule is Abby Martin (yet another intelligent woman) hosting Breaking the Set, who has the cojones to criticize Putin on his own news channel:

"Just because I work here, for RT, doesn't mean I don't have editorial independence and I can't stress enough how strongly I am against any military intervention in sovereign nations' affairs. What Russia did is wrong."​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZolXrjGIBJs
http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZolXrjGIBJs

Kudos! :thumbs:


P.S: 1,417,437 views in two days.

wow...

 

[SteamKing]

Personally I'm turned off by all the news sources.
I got to like Fox during the Bush years because they seemed most respectful of the President, which i think we all should be. And i detested the HuffPost and its ilk(including NPR) for the horrible disrespect they heaped on him.
Well, come 2009 and the roles reversed , so I'm no longer a fan of Fox either . They heap it onto Obama just like the left did to Bush.

They've all got their agendas.
old jim

Down thru US history, that different newspapers and magazines had a certain editorial slant and took certain political positions was, until recently, no secret. What is recent, however, is the claim and conceit that journalists and the organizations they work for are supposed to be politically impartial, as if they receive some special training that no one else gets. There's nothing wrong with differing political views being embodied or expressed in the editorial policy of a newspaper or magazine. What is wrong is pretending and claiming that one is neutral or impartial when that is not the case.

 

[jim hardy]

There's nothing wrong with differing political views being embodied or expressed in the editorial policy of a newspaper or magazine.

Quite so. That's why they have an "editorial" page where they make their position clear, and hopefully publish thoughtful "letters to the editor" from a variety of folks who agree and disagree with them.

But i am put off by it in the everyday coverage of events. It's manipulation. Orwell pegged it in Animal Farm with character "Squealer".

I believe Journalism ought to lift people, not herd them. Else it's reduced to propaganda

 

[SteamKing]

I believe Journalism ought to lift people, not herd them. Else it's reduced to propaganda

It's not clear what you mean by 'lift' in this context.

 

[DennisN]

Another RT (Russia Today) anchor, Liz Wahl, has resigned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55izx6rbCqg

 

[DennisN]

I've read some news on this "sniper controversy". This seems to be the origin (or at least, part of it):

Ukraine crisis: bugged call reveals conspiracy theory about Kiev snipers
Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet tells EU's Cathy Ashton about claim that provocateurs were behind Maidan killings (The Guardian)

"During the conversation, Paet quoted a woman named Olga – who the Russian media identified her as Olga Bogomolets, a doctor – blaming snipers from the opposition shooting the protesters."

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-[/PLAIN]
urmas-paet

Yet the Daily Telegraph seems to have double-checked with Olga Bogomolets:

Ukraine crisis: March 5 as it happened (Daily Telegraph)

15.17 Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.

"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.

"I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.

"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise."

Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.

"I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."

She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far.

"They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it."

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10677370/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html (about 1/3 down on that page at 15.17)

 

[voko]

Ukraine crisis: Crimea MPs vote to join Russia

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26465962

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Another RT (Russia Today) anchor, Liz Wahl, has resigned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55izx6rbCqg

Wow! She did it LIVE! :thumbs::!):thumbs:

I'm truly amazed by these very brave and intelligent women who have twice as many and twice as big cojones as any gray 17th century bear hunting he-man!

Maybe it's finally time to let the girls take over the business and run this giant ship into safe harbor??

It's obviously too much to handle for older gray men...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Residents of Odessa at the rally against the intervention of Russia in Ukraine February 3, 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB6jMxhtWpA
http://www.youtube.com/embed/nB6jMxhtWpA
(Sign at the end: Одесса = Украина --> Odessa = Ukraine)

And today (according to CNN International) there are violent pro-Russian rallies in Odessa.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26440517

The future of a western Ukraine without access to the Black Sea would be bleak indeed.

 

[voko]

these very brave

Very brave? The thing she was looking at was a camera, not a machine gun.

 

[OmCheeto]

Very brave? The thing she was looking at was a camera, not a machine gun.

I would be more worried about the sniper rifle if I were her.

My Russian acquaintances have told me, going forward, not to repeat anything they say regarding the Ukraine.

One of them received a threatening, anonymous email the day after I mentioned Stepan Bandera, telling him to basically; "Shut up". Even though he claims to have never printed anything on the internet regarding the current Ukrainian situation.

This kind of made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

I once jokingly said to a Russian, who was giving me grief, about 25 years ago:

я знаю, где вы живете. я знаю, где вы работаете. и я знаю, где ваши дети. = I know where you live. I know where you work. And I know where your children are.

It was a threat, based upon my perception of what Russia was like, many years ago.

The young Russian man, gave me no more grief.

In other news:

Lawmakers in the Crimea region voted earlier in favor of leaving Ukraine for Russia, which already has the Black Sea peninsula under de facto control, and set a referendum on the move for 10 days' time.

(ref)

 

[OmCheeto]

Ukraine crisis: Crimea MPs vote to join Russia

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26465962

Ooops.

 

[voko]

I would be more worried about the sniper rifle if I were her.

In Washington DC, whence she aired her resignation? Are the black helicopters already up?

 

[lisab]

I would be more worried about the sniper rifle if I were her.

My Russian acquaintances have told me, going forward, not to repeat anything they say regarding the Ukraine.

One of them received a threatening, anonymous email the day after I mentioned Stepan Bandera, telling him to basically; "Shut up". Even though he claims to have never printed anything on the internet regarding the current Ukrainian situation.

This kind of made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

I once jokingly said to a Russian, who was giving me grief, about 25 years ago:

я знаю, где вы живете. я знаю, где вы работаете. и я знаю, где ваши дети. = I know where you live. I know where you work. And I know where your children are.

It was a threat, based upon my perception of what Russia was like, many years ago.

The young Russian man, gave me no more grief.

"The past is never dead. It's not even past."

--Faulkner

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Very brave? The thing she was looking at was a camera, not a machine gun.

Maybe your imagination is a little bit 'limited'... because this camera was connected to 22 satellites and 230 operators, which allows some 644 million people to watch the channel in more than 100 countries, and one of the viewers is Vladimir Putin.

So, when did you last quit your job in front of 644 million people, upsetting a boss with nuclear weapons?


P.S: Liz Wahl was interviewed on CNN today and said "I haven't gotten any threats, yet...", half her family is still in Hungary (you know the country west of Ukraine), I leave the rest to your perhaps improved imagination. OmCheeto has without doubt got it right...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

OMG is Sarah Palin the best Russian expert Fox could come up with? Can she still see Russia from her back porch?

Yup, and not only that – she can see Ukraine from her back porch, four years into the future!

 

[mheslep]

Very brave? The thing she was looking at was a camera, not a machine gun.

Journalists/media-people in Russia 1993-2013:
Homicides, 184, about 100 of those since Lieutenant Colonel Putin became "Acting President" in 2000 ;
Missing 14;
"Not confirmed", 30.

Of course if the RT Anchor falls and stabs herself while running with scissors (or swallows Polonium) that's her own fault.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Personally I'm turned off by all the news sources.
I got to like Fox during the Bush years because they seemed most respectful of the President, which i think we all should be. And i detested the HuffPost and its ilk(including NPR) for the horrible disrespect they heaped on him.
Well, come 2009 and the roles reversed , so I'm no longer a fan of Fox either . They heap it onto Obama just like the left did to Bush.

That's an interesting perspective. In Europe, I guess this kind of 'reverence' for political leaders are maybe not that common (but from your perspective we're just a bunch of "semi-communist revolutionaries" anyhow... ). Personally, I think that 'reverence' for officials is not something that comes by default, but by action and character.

They've all got their agendas. At least RT's is clear.

Yes, maybe the best thing to do is to watch as many as you can, well aware of current agenda, and then make your own conclusions. If CNN, BBC, France24, EuroNews, Reuters, Al Jazeera, etc, are all saying the same thing – it is probably true. If RT is also saying the same thing – it is most probably not false.

However - Methinks Abby Martin doth protest too much.

What do you mean? It's wrong to protest against Putin's illegal intervention??

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Journalists/media-people in Russia 1993-2013:
Homicides, 184, about 100 of those since Lieutenant Colonel Putin became "Acting President" in 2000 ;
Missing 14;
"Not confirmed", 30.

Of course if the RT Anchor falls and stabs herself while running with scissors (or swallows Polonium) that's her own fault.

True!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I believe Journalism ought to lift people, not herd them. Else it's reduced to propaganda

:thumbs:

 

[DevilsAvocado]

wow...

Yeah, the "nuke thing" is unbelievable... makes me sick...


P.S: Are you still out of TV/news channels? (or was it lisab?)

If you are; there's a sweet solution to get a chunk of international news channels on your computer/gadget for free (and legal). Check out XBMC (for multiple OS/hardware), all you need is a decent connection.

Install it from xbmc.org and go to Videos -> Add-ons -> World News Live. There you have Al Jazeera, BBC World News, CNN International, CSPAN, EuroNews, France24, Reuters, RT, Sky News, etc, etc (note that some channels could be 'overcrowded' now and then, just keep on clicking).

If you want more, there are tons of add-ons here: http://addons.xbmc.org/category/video/

Handy unless this mess ends already...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

What Sen. Obama did or did not do in the summer of 2008 is irrelevant.

Maybe you are missing the crucial part – Fox & Palin are trying to fake it (as usual), to make it look like it was Obama's responsibility and that Palin talked about this back in 2008 and then warned for that Russia was to invade Ukraine next, which is somewhere between a terrible bad lie and hilarious joke.

Palin raises a valid point about the energy pipelines traveling west from Russia thru the Ukraine to Europe.

And the "solution" Palin provides is fracking in Alaska? Maybe you could help me out here – is Palin planning to build a pipeline between Alaska and Germany?? Or does she want to go to war to cut the pipeline(s) between Russia and Germany, or what??

To be sure, Palin is not the only one who is making these points.

Really? Could you please provide the name of any other professional political analyst who back in 2008 knew that Russia was to invade Ukraine next, and who claims that the solution to all this is fracking in Alaska? And not wear 'Mom Jeans'??

 

[Dotini]

Here are some realistic ideas from Henry Kissinger on how this confrontation ends.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html
Public discussion on Ukraine is all about confrontation. But do we know where we are going? In my life, I have seen four wars begun with great enthusiasm and public support, all of which we did not know how to end and from three of which we withdrew unilaterally. The test of policy is how it ends, not how it begins.

 

[SteamKing]

And the "solution" Palin provides is fracking in Alaska? Maybe you could help me out here – is Palin planning to build a pipeline between Alaska and Germany?? Or does she want to go to war to cut the pipeline(s) between Russia and Germany, or what??

Palin is not advocating that anyone go to war. However, the Europeans are (mostly) rational people and they see stormy sailing ahead w.r.t. their energy supplies coming out of Russia, so they are making plans for alternate supplies of energy, particularly natural gas:

http://gcaptain.com/hoegh-lng-floating-regas-terminal-demand-ukraine-crisis/

Don't be silly, you can't see Germany from Alaska, so a pipeline between the two would be wildly impractical.

 

[SteamKing]

It looks like back to the Black Sea for the USN:

http://gcaptain.com/us-navy-destroyer-truxtun-departs-for-the-black-sea/

And just when you thought things might settle down a bit, someone starts a blockade:

http://gcaptain.com/russian-warship-sunk-crimea/

 

[voko]

President Putin's Fiction: 10 False Claims About Ukraine

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/03/222988.htm

 

[jim hardy]

Great link you posted there , Dotini.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

For the West, the demonization of Vladimir Putin is not a policy; it is an alibi for the absence of one.

Putin should come to realize that, whatever his grievances, a policy of military impositions would produce another Cold War. For its part, the United States needs to avoid treating Russia as an aberrant to be patiently taught rules of conduct established by Washington. Putin is a serious strategist — on the premises of Russian history. Understanding U.S. values and psychology are not his strong suits. Nor has understanding Russian history and psychology been a strong point of U.S. policymakers.

Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:

1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.

2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.

3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.

4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

Crimea is a strategic piece to both sides , as in Brzezinski's "Grand Chessboard" .
But you don't blow up the whole game over a rook.

 

[SteamKing]

Really? Could you please provide the name of any other professional political analyst who back in 2008 knew that Russia was to invade Ukraine next, and who claims that the solution to all this is fracking in Alaska? And not wear 'Mom Jeans'??

No one said that in 2008 and no one is saying that now.

When NATO held a summit at Bucharest in April 2008, both the Ukraine and Georgia requested to be offered a Membership Action Plan to join the organization. The summit adjourned without offering such a plan to these two countries, instead promising to revisit the decision in December 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit

Putin made his move on Georgia in June, knowing that the UK, Germany and France opposed giving membership to Georgia and the Ukraine at the summit. Putin wanted things taken care of in Georgia quickly since the 2014 Olympics were scheduled to take place in nearby Sochi, and Russia was investing a staggering amount of money (over $50 billion and counting) to hold these games.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Ukraine would then receive all sorts of attention from Russia, not the least because of access to the Black Sea for merchant and naval ships. Adding several hundred miles of territory to Russia's western border is an added bonus.

Given Obama's actions while president, pulling out of Afghanistan and Iraq, secretly negotiating with Iran, fumbling round with Egypt and Libya, and totally humiliated in handling Syria, Putin knew that he could expect no serious or credible threats from the US or NATO or Europe w.r.t. his actions in the Ukraine.

But Putin's actions are not without risks. Russia can't withstand the loss of revenue derived from energy sales to the west for very long if the pipelines running thru the Ukraine are damaged or destroyed. It's also not clear if the average Russian is eager to go to war over the Ukraine, given the experiences in Afghanistan in the 1980s and Chechnya more recently. Having been around for the fall of the USSR, Putin knows that things can go wrong quite quickly politically if circumstances align.

If Russia's energy customers are forced to go elsewhere to obtain their supplies, it might not be very easy to persuade them to come back after things have settled down. Russia is also dependent on the west for capital and technology to exploit its existing oil and gas deposits and to explore for more deposits.

 

[voko]

But Putin's actions are not without risks. Russia can't withstand the loss of revenue derived from energy sales to the west for very long if the pipelines running thru the Ukraine are damaged or destroyed.

That is true, but. No one except perhaps the USA would want to fiddle with the pipelines. It is certainly not in the interest of Ukraine nor of the EU. And it will take a serious effort to damage the pipelines severely in any large extent, so the stakeholders will have ample time to avert or minimise the damage.

 

[voko]

EU approves EUR 11 billion package for Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/BarrosoEU/status/441624936407642112

 

[jim hardy]

Yes, maybe the best thing to do is to watch as many as you can, well aware of current agenda, and then make your own conclusions.

I try to do that, everything from Amy Goodman to Sean Hannity( i find him hard to take).
I subscribed to Atlantic Monthly and Foreign Affairs for a few years in an attempt to raise my awareness . That cerebral style of writing puts one to sleep, but also makes one more immune to the hype of the mainstream. Mainstream wants to titillate and sway rather than promote one's thinking.

I gave up the magazine subscriptions a few years ago. Too much paper to dispose of.
But while i was active , believe it or not i found the best source for what's going on in the world to be Soldier of Fortune magazine. They were a bit visceral , but they gave good heads-up for things to investigate further at think-tank websites like CSIS and CFR; and usually a full year ahead of the networks.
It worked for me, your mileage might vary.

old jim

 

[Crazymechanic]

First of all Russ you said this

Do you have any evidence of that? If not, it is conspiracy theory and you need to stop posting such things. It is against our rules.

Not exactly true , ok I don't have info to back up my theory on the events in Ukraine because they are new and happening, But I can give you links to CIA own homepage where they have written their past covert operations in detail and judging by what they write themselves not to mention the various all other surces and history itself I can be pretty much sure about theuir tactics and policy , and let's be honest Russ , you know too pefectly well what is going on , it;'s just that the part of story that we don't like or prefer we usually choose to either ignore or call fake.We are free to do that but let'snot fool our selves at the end...
One thing is for sure CIA has taken part in many coups and government overthrows around the world during the 20th century, I'm a little lazy to find all the papers now but if you will ask for them , be my guest , I will provide them.
Everybody has an interest in Ukraine , starting from the US to Russia to EU and localo gangsters and radicals , and the way it all comes together is a big mess.


Also another thing , few pages before in this very thread , Admin Greg deleted my post to a youtube video about Estonian foreign minister and EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton, about their telephone conversation about the Ukraine snipers case.
Greg said that he thought that the video is fake and not trustworthy and he labelled it " crackpot"
Yet the Estonian government and the minister himself has admitted the phone conversation to be authentic , just to remind everyone that Estonia is a NATO country and this is the voice of their minister of foreign affairs.

here is the link to the ministry of foreign affairs of Estonia with their statement about the authenticity of the telephone record.

http://www.vm.ee/?q=en/node/19353

Since the video is authentic , I will post it here one more time so that other folks can have their share of fair information and hear the opinions of high ranking EU and Estonia people about the case.





I could go into a lot of detail about Ukrainian topics and far more , as I said I personally know people from security and intelligence organizations , but I believe that many of the PF staff and also maybe some members will dislike this info even though it is the truth so I will decline in speaking any further about the details of this.

I can tell you only one thing , the truth is not always the one which you hear or the one which you have been told or teached at a certain point.Especially when it comes down to politics different parties and agendas push their manipulated , distorted and heavily subjective information as the only ultimate truth , because otherwise they couldn't survive and hold the power ad quite frankly some poeple just ask for lies as they themselves live in a big lie that they call life.

Im sorry for being a little poetic as PF probably dislikes such style but sometimes you just have to ask yourself , how long is your life and how much do you or anyone actually gain by feeding yourself and other with propoganda and lies?

And finally , the communists and all other " isms" like Nazism has done a great harm to the world , to that we all agree , but if one chooses to believe or serve a false pretence for whatever the reason good or bad , is he any better than those whom he fights against ? Is he any good?
One must ask himself do we fight lies with lies? Has anyone tried to fight fire with fire?
Tell me the outcome , I would like to hear :)

Think about these thing folks , and have a good day.

 

[SteamKing]

That is true, but. No one except perhaps the USA would want to fiddle with the pipelines. It is certainly not in the interest of Ukraine nor of the EU. And it will take a serious effort to damage the pipelines severely in any large extent, so the stakeholders will have ample time to avert or minimise the damage.

Given the administration's bent, I don't think you have to worry about action against the pipelines from the US. However, if a shooting war breaks out, there are no guarantees that stray munitions might not land near a pipeline or pumping station. The Russians and the Ukrainians both lose in such an event, but that doesn't mean that an accident can't happen.

 

[Dotini]

if one chooses to believe or serve a false pretence for whatever the reason good or bad , is he any better than those whom he fights against ? Is he any good?
One must ask himself do we fight lies with lies? Has anyone tried to fight fire with fire?
Tell me the outcome , I would like to hear :)

Think about these thing folks , and have a good day.

I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to denying truth in favor of more comforting and beautiful lies. Sometimes, if the truth is too ugly or brutal, I prefer to take a craft brew and watch Game of Thrones - where I learn that there is never any pure good or bad, no unvarnished truth, and things are always ambivalent.

With respect to the video, I accept it as authentic. But it only proves that an investigation is needed. I think that extremely unlikely.

Personally, I think too much water has gone under the bridge for an investigation of the Maidan sniping. Too much ante has been pushed into the pot. It will remain a conspiracy theory, an unplayed variation of the chessgame, while a different solution is worked out.

 

[Crazymechanic]

Well one " dead giveaway" will be the actions of the new government , if they will not investigate the sniper shootings while being pro western then that will be an alarming signal that something is not right , the west " used to be" a self proclaimed pillar for justice and equal rights , and if so then justice must come to those killing innocent unarmed people.
here is how I see what will happen probably , the Crimean region will be under Russian cotrol , maybe even become part or Russia again and the rest of Ukraine will remain free because that would be a " too big" of a step for Putin at the current position and situation.

If indeed Ukraine will have pro west leaders with pro west policy from now onwards then i suspect corruption to be the same and everything else , except Washington will now sleep peacefully.
Forgive my critique and dark painted scenes but I ahve seen that the ex soviet , half mafia so called democratic leaders of the former communist states have a interesting policy in the 21st. century.
They don't care where the money comes from as long as it ends up in their back pocket.It's just that now it will come from the US budget in the already approved financial aid.

The same thing happened with much of the money from EU towards the countries that joined the EU in 2004.millions and millions of dolllars went into doubtful projects with even more doubtful results , like road renovations with the new road failing after a year. Cogeneration power plants being built in the middle of a countryside field just to get money off from state sponsored electricity production through renewable resources even though the heat that is also produced and is meant to be used is wasted away because electricity can be transferred much further than heat due to physics and the folks here know that.

It's not Russia so much that degrades and destroys countries , it's not some agenda etc, it;s greed and corruption of the very people who should serve their land that puts their very motherland under such conditions.
Given the resources and exports of Ukraine they could do pretty well instead of having a chaos and risk of default.

Also whenever we speak of justice , we should lookm at the personal wealth of the pro western backed leaders in countries with western influence , in many cases we find their personal wealth staggering and huge with some lawsuits hanging in mid air and doubtful financial income.
Yulia Tymoshenko is no exception.And trust me working in government in an ex soviet country you can't get rich just by your official sallary.So where does the money come from ?
From various sources too long to describe here but can be labelled with one word corruption.

If one wants to turn Ukraine over just dealing with Russian influence is not merely enough , the whole system and the thinking f the poeple in power must be reorganized.Something the US and much of the west went through back in the day and it took them decades to become the states they are now.
Quite frankly I doubt that every nation can become " normal" so to speak of by western standards , just because people are different , mentality is different , history and thinking all differs.
Excuse me but I'm kinda skeptical about this whole thing.The only thing I wish is for the poeple of Ukraine and other places to be able to live a free and civilized life without any influences both good or bad both western or eastern , just to be able to see the fruits of their own work.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

No one said that in 2008 and no one is saying that now.

You need to watch the video again.

Sean Hannity: My next guest *predicted* that this would happen way back in 2008, but liberals and democrats they laughed it off, you may remember this:

Sarah Palin: After the Russian army invaded the nation of Georgia, senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral ebullience, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next!

Who needs Michael Palin & Monty Python? It can't get any more entertaining than this. Fox & Palin can't even get the grammar right; in "2008" she talks in past tense about the 2014 invasion of Ukraine, as if it has already happened... Gosh!

Given Obama's actions while president, pulling out of Afghanistan and Iraq, secretly negotiating with Iran, fumbling round with Egypt and Libya, and totally humiliated in handling Syria, Putin knew that he could expect no serious or credible threats from the US or NATO or Europe w.r.t. his actions in the Ukraine.

Nice, more Palin humor, the "fumbling" that shattered Libya's defense in a couple of days with a few ships and missile precision bombing, strongly encourage Putin to invade Ukraine??

And now the fact that George W. Bush did absolutely nothing when Putin invaded Georgia in 2008, have absolutely nothing to do with it??

This is first class humor.

 

[DennisN]

Since the video is authentic , I will post it here one more time so that other folks can have their share of fair information and hear the opinions of high ranking EU and Estonia people about the case.

And I remind folks about my post 216 about this thing. According to the Daily Telegraphs correspondent Damien McElroy, Olga Bogomolets has denied she had said anything about any "sniper conspiracy theory" to Mr Paet:

"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10677370/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html (about 1/3 down on that page at 15.17)

 

[Crazymechanic]

I'm afraid we will not know who the snipers were for a pretty long time.this is not the typical robbery thing , this is so much more on such a higher level.

Many famous high level shootings and crimes are still unsolved and as time passes they will probably be left so for the rest of eternity.

 

[Czcibor]

@Crazymechanic
I think that if we already discuss as it was politely called "non-mainstream political theories", why should we only narrow ourselves to only those that could hypothetically put Russia in better light? Shouldn't we also take into account those that would adversely influence Russian image? I mean in Poland we used to have president named Lech Kaczyński who was ardently anti-Russian. He provided diplomatic support for Georgia during their war with Russia. He died in air crash on Russia soil, in plane produced by Russians while visiting mass graves of Polish officers murdered by Stalin. After all those almost 4 years Russians were rather uncooperative in sharing data during their investigation and still did not give us the remnants of plane for our own investigation. Could you guess which theories circulate in my country, especially among the more nationalistic part of the society?

The official version is an accident. May I use here arguments in your style, implying that we would never know the truth who was responsible, however, with hint that there is one suspect?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

According to CNN International; Frigate USS Taylor is now in the Black Sea, and guided missile destroyer USS Truxtun is on its way through the Bosphorus (Istanbul Strait)...

USS Taylor (4,200 t / 138 m)

USS Truxtun (9,200 t / 160 m)

 

[nsaspook]

According to CNN International; Frigate USS Taylor is now in the Black Sea, and guided missile destroyer USS Truxtun is on its way through the Bosphorus (Istanbul Strait)...

All true but nothing what wasn't scheduled long ago to keep a presence in the area.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=79498

While in the Black Sea, the ship will conduct a port visit and routine, previously planned exercises with allies and partners in the region. Truxtun's operations in the Black Sea were scheduled well in advance of her departure from the United States.

I'm sure she will be conducting extensive ELINT and other activities with Taylor and Whitney on the current events.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=78959

BLACK SEA (NNS) -- The U.S. 6th Fleet flag ship USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20), with 300 Sailors and Military Sealift Command civil service mariners onboard, arrived in the Black Sea Feb. 4 to conduct scheduled maritime security operations. USS Taylor (FFG 50) will arrive in the Black Sea Feb. 5.