Is atheism a sign of intellectual weakness?

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The discussion centers on the claim that atheism may reflect intellectual weakness, contrasting it with theists who embrace doubt alongside their faith. Some participants argue that atheists exhibit a form of close-mindedness, believing they possess the ultimate truth without acknowledging their own uncertainties. Others counter that atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, not indicative of pride or ignorance, and that many atheists engage in thoughtful discussions about faith. The conversation also touches on the idea that both theists and atheists can be equally guilty of dogmatism, and that skepticism should be a shared trait in both philosophies. Ultimately, the debate highlights the complexity of belief and knowledge, suggesting that neither side holds a monopoly on understanding.
  • #61
So could one possibly equate a spiritual experience with an epiphany of their own spiritual beliefs?

By epiphany, I mean in the term of definition 3a on dictionary.com:
"A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something."
 
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  • #62
Originally posted by Pirwzwhomper
So could one possibly equate a spiritual experience with an epiphany of their own spiritual beliefs?

By epiphany, I mean in the term of definition 3a on dictionary.com:
"A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something."

The spiritual experience is a profound and powerful experience, that could easily be seen as an endorsement that what you believe is true, assuming what you're practicing (christian prayer, buddhist meditation, judaic meditation) at the approximate time of the spiritual experience.

There is no loud, booming voice saying, "Yep Pirwz, you are correct. I am Zeus and I like what you're doing". However, when a life-changing experience smacks you between the eyes, when everything and everyone appears different, fresh, and alive, when you are patently amazed the everybody outside your skin wasn't aware that this amazing thing has happened, it's easy to start attaching meaning to it that wasn't part of the experience.
 
  • #63
Originally posted by Pirwzwhomper
So could one possibly equate a spiritual experience with an epiphany of their own spiritual beliefs?

By epiphany, I mean in the term of definition 3a on dictionary.com:
"A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something."

Pirwzwhomper,

If you haven't read the link I posted yet, I suggest you take a look... It gives a pretty clear description of the 'spiritual experience' as I was using the phrase-- there is clearly something of a core experience going on here, something that, as Radagast noted, isn't vague at all if you have actually experienced it:

http://www.csp.org/experience/docs/noetic_gnosis.html

Profound spiritual experiences are typically responsible for starting religious institutions, insofar as most religions are based on the teachings of spiritual masters who presumably possessed an elevated spiritual awareness-- for instance, although I'm not aware of the Bible alluding to any such particular experience for Jesus, the paradigm he espouses in the Bible is roughly indicative of the way one tends to think and feel during such an experience; and I believe that Islam actually was constructed based on a particular vision (spiritual experience) of its founder, Muhammad. So you can imagine that if whole religions can be created from a spiritual experience, it is no small matter for a practicing member of a religion to identify his/her experience with the teachings of his/her religion. However, there is nothing in the experience itself which lends itself to one religion's teachings any more than another's.
 
  • #64
Hmm. Sounds like a bunch of crap, IMHO. But then, one has to believe in the spiritual first.
 
  • #65
Originally posted by amadeus
I recently read an argument that atheists are fools, not for disbelieving in God, but for believing too much in themselves...
-snip-
Atheism, on the contrary, seems a close-minded position. The atheist sees himself as the master of a universe in which he is the sole bearer of truth. In the atheist's mind there is no doubt, no sense of insecurity, no possibility that he might be wrong without realizing it. Unlike most people, the atheist is not bothered by the fact that his feeling of certainty is not shared by the absolute majority of people around him;
-snip-



Conventional wisdom has concluded the Universe must have come from somewhere, and the idea that it was ushered into existence by some primordial nascent event appeals seductively to human intuition. The very process of thought is governed by cause and effect, so scholars instinctively employ that principle in their quest to solve the ultimate mystery of the Universe. Proponents of 'Big Bang' espouse a theory of singularity which envisions a Universe cast from the bowels of a spontaneous cosmic eruption. Many contemporary religions believe a devine act of creation gave birth to the infinite cosmos. Both science and theology portray a source of creation - a spawning force of natural or supernatural origin. From cosmologists to clergy, the presumption that the Universe began is quietly accepted without question.

The existence of nothing ostensibly requires no justification, so most theories of Universal origin begin with a primal void. At the 'beginning of time' a transformation must have taken place, and the physical manifestation of the cosmos resulted. But creation would require a creator - the very presence of which would violate the original contention that nothing existed. Even if that inconsistency is ignored, whatever sired the Universe must, too, have been created by some predecessor which, in turn, must have been predated by a limitless procession of ancestry. The endless cycle of chicken-and-the-egg redundancy which results from a cause and effect approach to the enigma of existence implies no logical 'beginning'.

Supernatural versions of creation sidestep the issue of redundancy with the assertion that whatever created the Universe was not subject to the laws of nature. Of course, when the laws of nature are discarded anything is possible, even the absurd. If immunity could be alleged on one occasion, why could it not be invoked for every natural occurrence. To claim exemption from the laws of nature is to refute logic, itself.

Before something can change - act or be acted upon - it must first exist. The process of 'change' is always explained in terms of cause and effect - action and reaction. Conditions - or states of being - change during the process of cause and effect, but existence is not a condition or a state of being, it is being, itself. And if being is required in order for change to occur then cause and effect is a function of the phenomenon of existence. This is the very antithesis of the premise that existence is the product of a process - a manifestation or transformation commonly called creation.

If it is not logical to believe that the Universe began, how would it be logical to believe there was a creator?


Theory of Reciprocity
 
  • #66
Originally posted by Pirwzwhomper
Hmm. Sounds like a bunch of crap, IMHO. But then, one has to believe in the spiritual first.

Again, it might sound like a bunch of crap if you don't have some first-hand verification of the experience. Having the experience is not predicated on a belief system-- you don't have to believe that there is some 'spiritual essense' to have a spiritual experience. I'm not claiming that you necessarily are 'claimed' or 'possessed' of some numinous essense during the spiritual experience-- only that it is a mode of perception, thought, and consciousness that is distinct from your everyday experience of consciousness. Alternative modes of consciousness undoubtedy exist; if you are skeptical, ask a schizophrenic or a drug user. The spiritual experience is just one such alternative mode of consciousness.
 
  • #67
Originally posted by hypnagogue
I'm not arguing for the existence of God here, but consider an analogy. There are a whole lot of interpretations as to the physical meaning behind the mathematics of quantum mechanics, and it is unclear if we will ever know for sure which, if any, is the 'correct' one. Does this detract from the credibility of quantum mechanics? A typical answer is that quantum mechanics can be verified objectively, regardless of how we interpret the data. A mystic, on the other hand, will tell you that 'God' can be verified subjectively, regardless of how we interpret the spiritual experience.

Do I have all the answers? No. That is why I'm agnostic and not atheistic. :wink: Like I mentioned in another post, existence is subjective and in the eye of the believer. You can't prove God exists anymore than I can prove the universe is infinite. We must each find the truth within ourselves.
 
  • #68
loss of words

*Its one of those nights in which I can never find the words to get my idea onto paper, allow me time to think a while on it. I just felt that I had to post something.*
 
  • #69
Originally posted by Pirwzwhomper
Hmm. Sounds like a bunch of crap, IMHO. But then, one has to believe in the spiritual first.

Believe in the spiritual? You don't have to believe crap. Experiencing it tends to be quite good at convincing.

We are not talking (at least I'm not) a supernatural event or experience - we are talking of a different state of consciousness.

You accept other states of consciousness, right?

Do you equally dismiss quantum mechanics, relativity, or playing the Oboe, just because it's outside your current experience base?
 
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  • #70
Originally posted by Zantra
Do I have all the answers? No. That is why I'm agnostic and not atheistic. :wink: Like I mentioned in another post, existence is subjective and in the eye of the believer. You can't prove God exists anymore than I can prove the universe is infinite. We must each find the truth within ourselves.

Well, I think there are two ways to conceive of 'God.' There is the traditional way, which treats God as some objective mythological object. As I have said before, I think this paradigm of God has been created in an attempt to make sense of the spiritual experience and integrate it into everyday life. Such a treatment defeats the point of what I was trying to get across before-- for a mystic, 'God' primarily exists or is accessed through a specific state of consciousness. Thus, comparing a conception of 'God' in this sense to the conception of an infinite universe is comparing apples and oranges-- one is verified subjectively, the other objectively. Thus, while the mythological 'God' object is by definition quite beyond reach, the experiential 'God' is indeed verified by the appropriate state of consciousness.
 
  • #71
Everybody believes in something. Theists believe in a God, atheists do not. Atheists believe science has all the answers. We live in a multidimensional world, according to scientists. If the big bang is the start of the universe, then the first dimension was the start of it all, all energy concentrated in one point. I believe in that one point, and that point to me is God. Whatever you call it. Atheists have a problem calling something defined by science, God. Einstein who defined that everything is energy, still believed in God. All energy together is God to me, and this takes me back to the first dimension. But I do not want to restrict myself to only one dimension. There is more than one point of energy in the universe. If you want to believe that energy is the soul thing in the universe, do so. But there is still a lot of energy we cannot sense or measure, and that still affects our lives. For me, it's devine, for atheists its probably energy, for satanists it's the devil, whatever you worship, whatever is number one for you...
 
  • #72
Uh... number of misconceptions here...

Atheists believe science has all the answers.
Uh... no they don't. The only thing that ties theists together is their lack of belief in god. After that, they can believe in anything, like pink elephants - as long as it isn't divine. Even then, it is invalid to say science has all the answers. Science doesn't have the answers - that's the point. Science is a good method to get closer to the answers.

We live in a multidimensional world, according to scientists.
Of course. Width, Height and Length. Oh you mean the 11? No. That isn't a belief, but a hypothetical derivation - a theory that some scientists are testing, and many don't agree with. No belief required.
The only belief in science is that the search for knowledge is worthwhile. That's it.

If the big bang is the start of the universe, then the first dimension was the start of it all, all energy concentrated in one point.
Uh... I am getting some bad vibes from this statement. From what little I know of string theory, this isn't what is meant. One point? Maybe, from the evidence we find. First dimension... No.

Atheists have a problem calling something defined by science, God.
Modern physics tries to avoid calling anything by a name with too many strings attached. (Hence Quarks, Charm, Strangeness, Colour, Flavour) God needs to be conscious, omnipotent and eternal. Atheists? Well, if they called it God, they wouldn't be atheists by definition, would they?

Einstein who defined that everything is energy, still believed in God.
Uh... key misunderstanding here. Einstien's god is Spinoza's universal order, the god which doesn't play dice. It isn't really god in the strictest, dictionary sense.

But there is still a lot of energy we cannot sense or measure, and that still affects our lives.
Here's my problem... Sense or measure, but still affects? In physical terms, that is a contradiction in terms. We measure everything by the effect they have on what we experience. An entity that still affects our lives must neccessarily be measurable, and sensable. It must be a materialist entity, because it holds the connection with the material existence.
 
  • #73
Ha ! Ha !
How could I miss this thread ?!
Originally posted by FZ+
Is atheism a sign of intellectual weakness?
That's one of the FUNNIEST things I've ever heard !
 
  • #74
What I believe and how I see the world is obviously not common knowledge, everyone has his own view on life, and hopefully they can live with it. Multidimensional, sure, but I only can grasp the fourth dimension as the last one proven by science, all dimensions higher than time are hypothetical, I agree. I can't even imagine that there is an 11th or 13th dimension. Occasionaly my fantasy takes me upto 7th or 9th but who believes what one's mind tells him has to be careful not to end up in the nuthouse. I believe it all started at one point. My point is the center of my universe, and everyone has his own view on the universe.
 

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