Is Bloom Box the Future of Energy?

[russ_watters]

i guess the question if whether he's talking about a time value of money calculation, or simply making an outright lie.

It's not a lie. A payback calculation looks like this:

capital cost/savings [rate] = payback

He gave the savings.

Like any marketing-speak, you just need to make sure you don't read past what is being said.

and they're certainly trying to get investors excited. one in every home, times about 128 million homes at $3k a pop is $384 billion just for the residential market.

[snip]what i see is a lot of hype. and hype will feather his nest just fine.

Well that part was also misleading. That's $3k per kW and that's nowhere near enough to power a home (I live in a townhouse and my air conditioner alone is 4 kw) unless you have it running 24/7, with a large battery bank to store the excess at night (like with a solar plant). I don't think that's the preferred setup.

Anyway, that was just a throwaway comment he made. They aren't developing such a product, so it really didn't have a point except to add to the marketing hype for the purpose of keeping/generating investors. The 60 Minutes piece wasn't for news, it was a sales pitch to investors.

i guess commercial would push it well over a trillion.

The commercial market for energy is a little smaller than the residential. The industrial market is twice that size: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec2_4.pdf

In the northeast, there is a legitimate market for large commercial/industrial cogen, but right now they mostly use regular diesel generators or gas turbines. That's the market this product has to compete in.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

As for wireless energy there is a physicist named Dr Konstantin Meyl who demonstrated wireless electricity in an american conference some time ago. His work has been replicated in several other universities. I can't remember his website off the top of my head but if you want to verify my claims google Konstantin Meyl and you should find his website.

The wireless angle is what set off my crackpot detector. I did not notice more than one reference to it though I did not watch the whole thing. Am I wrong in assuming that wireless energy is too wasteful to be viable?

 

[russ_watters]

The wireless angle is what set off my crackpot detector. I did not notice more than one reference to it though I did not watch the whole thing.

I suspect that was just bad writing/reporting. I watched the whole thing and didn't see any other referenes to it.

Am I wrong in assuming that wireless energy is too wasteful to be viable?

No, you are correct, for the most part. It works fine over very short distances, in the range of milimeters (ie, my electric toothbrush). Beyond that, it isn't viable.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I suspect that was just bad writing/reporting. I watched the whole thing and didn't see any other referenes to it. No, you are correct, for the most part. It works fine over very short distances, in the range of milimeters (ie, my electric toothbrush). Beyond that, it isn't viable.

I thought they were going to try this with cell phones too. Has that been abandoned?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It works fine over very short distances, in the range of milimeters (ie, my electric toothbrush). Beyond that, it isn't viable.

I thought they were going to try this with cell phones too. Has that been abandoned?

Ah. I think I have heard of short distance "wireless". I believe the common idea is something like a contact plate or similar that can transmit power to a device without having to actually be "plugged in".

So in the instance of a cell you could perhaps set it on a charging device and recharge it similar to the cradles we have now. Maybe though they had something a little more interesting in mind.

 

[russ_watters]

I thought they were going to try this with cell phones too. Has that been abandoned?

It's available: http://the-gadgeteer.com/2009/11/05/duracell-mygrid-charging-pad-cell-phone-starter-kit-review/

I'm not sure it is a real useful concept, though, since you have to attach a rather large coil to the back of the phone to use it (it snaps-in to a device similar to a plastic cover).

 

[russ_watters]

Oops...That duracell isn't wireless. Here's the wireless one: http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/16/view/5025/ces-2009-powermat-wireless-charger.html

http://www.powermat.com/us/home/

 

[waht]

I never bothered to read up on the bloombox, but since it's getting so much attention I thought I'd give it a second chance.


First red flag: that scientist is so confident that most house holds will have a bloom box in the next five years. Yet, they are currently producing ONE bloom box per day.

Second red flag: flashes a fuel cell in front your eyes and says this one will power a European house, take two and will power an American house. LOL.

Third red flag: Claims it will replace power grids, and shows you a huge bloom box housing that won't fit in most people's basements. Most people don't even have a basement, nor lawn.

Fourth red flag: When there is no peer review, you can still become your own crackpot despite the credentials. They have been secretive for eight years, yet there is no secret. I'm in awe they were able to maintain the status quo for so long and attract the new investor wave who think green energy will revolutionize the next century.

And that's because Collin Powells is on it, doesn't make it credible. There has been plenty of failed government projects that were born out of convincing politicians.

 

[glueball8]

It's available: http://the-gadgeteer.com/2009/11/05/duracell-mygrid-charging-pad-cell-phone-starter-kit-review/

I'm not sure it is a real useful concept, though, since you have to attach a rather large coil to the back of the phone to use it (it snaps-in to a device similar to a plastic cover).

http://blog.ted.com/2009/08/wireless_electr.php

 

[russ_watters]

I never bothered to read up on the bloombox, but since it's getting so much attention I thought I'd give it a second chance.

First red flag...

Fourth red flag: When there is no peer review, you can still become your own crackpot despite the credentials. They have been secretive for eight years, yet there is no secret. I'm in awe they were able to maintain the status quo for so long and attract the new investor wave who think green energy will revolutionize the next century.

Agreed. Credentials or not, he certainly talks like a crackpot. That may be a result of the position he's in, though: crackpots and advertisers are basically the same thing.

I'm wondering what the intelligence of the typical multi-million dollar venture capitalist is. Do they respond to such things? I know if I was going to invest a lot of money in this (and if I demanded info and all I got was a used-car sales pitch, I'd be upset), I'd want to see a real business plan. After all, he's got working prototypes. What, exactly, is its efficiency? What did it cost to build? What enhancements are you working on? What are your prospects for streamlining manufacturing?

 

[pantaz]

The whole thing reminds me a bit of the hype surrounding the introduction of the Segway. It's a real product, with limited real-life application, but the excited developer/manufacturer is pronouncing the "revolution" it will effect.

 

[rewebster]

I'd buy one today if it was in the 3k-5k range---and I think the 'wireless' implied may be 'off the grid' (not connected via transmission wires) -not 'no wires for its own use

 

[humanino]

Second red flag: flashes a fuel cell in front your eyes and says this one will power a European house, take two and will power an American house. LOL.

What is wrong with that ? Suggesting that american people use too much power, and implementing a reasonable reduction in the design of his box looks to me like a very good idea.

Third red flag: Claims it will replace power grids, and shows you a huge bloom box housing that won't fit in most people's basements. Most people don't even have a basement, nor lawn.

The huge box was not for a private house obviously.

Fourth red flag: When there is no peer review, you can still become your own crackpot despite the credentials. They have been secretive for eight years, yet there is no secret. I'm in awe they were able to maintain the status quo for so long and attract the new investor wave who think green energy will revolutionize the next century.

There is actually a secret, you do not know how the coating is manufactured. An important question in this business is the durability of the product. My understanding, if the initial product was design to provide oxygen to NASA astronauts on Mars, there is a possibility that the coating is actually quite robust. Obviously, only time can lift doubts in this regards.

And that's because Collin Powells is on it, doesn't make it credible.

I certainly agree with that.

 

[rewebster]

He didn't invent anything. He's just using a different material than a lot of other companies and a slightly different design (apparently, electrolyte support instead of anode support). SOFCs have been around a lot longer than 8 years, they just haven't become so commercially viable and cost effective until about 5 years ago.

that's minimalizing it---that is what makes a breakthrough...

like, instead of using burnt bamboo, to tungsten

 

[minger]

I'd buy one today if it was in the 3k-5k range---and I think the 'wireless' implied may be 'off the grid' (not connected via transmission wires) -not 'no wires for its own use

You'd buy one today with no mentions of actual efficiencies, only because it's off the gird?

May I suggest then simply buying a generator? Doing a quick google shows that you can get a brand new 20kW generator for under $5000.

 

[Cyrus]

Fourth red flag: When there is no peer review, you can still become your own crackpot despite the credentials. They have been secretive for eight years, yet there is no secret. I'm in awe they were able to maintain the status quo for so long and attract the new investor wave who think green energy will revolutionize the next century.

Again, from the article I posted...

It took three years of development to produce the first in-house version of the Bloom box, and in 2006 the company shipped its first unit to be tested at the University of Tennessee under a contract with the U.S. Department of Energy. After two years of testing, the company shipped the first Bloom boxes to corporate customers in July of 2008 – twenty Fortune 100 companies in all.

 

[waht]

I'm wondering what the intelligence of the typical multi-million dollar venture capitalist is. Do they respond to such things? I know if I was going to invest a lot of money in this (and if I demanded info and all I got was a used-car sales pitch, I'd be upset), I'd want to see a real business plan. After all, he's got working prototypes. What, exactly, is its efficiency? What did it cost to build? What enhancements are you working on? What are your prospects for streamlining manufacturing?

All it takes is a risk taking gene. Most successful investors were lucky, but they like to say they knew what they were doing.

There is actually a secret, you do not know how the coating is manufactured. An important question in this business is the durability of the product. My understanding, if the initial product was design to provide oxygen to NASA astronauts on Mars, there is a possibility that the coating is actually quite robust. Obviously, only time can lift doubts in this regards.

The particular details of their formula are without a doubt elusive, but fuels cells have been researched for decades by universities around the world, and rich corporations. I'd like to know what is so novel about this one.

 

[waht]

Here is a natural gas 100 KW generator for $17,000.

Google, and Ebay bought multiple 100 KW Bloom Boxes for $800,000 each. Sure it's a prototype, so the cost may be justified.

Some websites report Bloom Box is twice as efficient than other natural gas generators. So this makes it an instant product of choice. However, to bring down the absurd cost of Bloom Box, one needs supply-demand. But what is the demand for existing gas generators?

It seems Bloom Box would start to make savings in the very long term. As as result, it wouldn't be an attractive choice for people's homes when the time to pay for itself could be another decade. Only big businesses might benefit.

I suppose the bulk cost of the Bloom Box are the cells. But fuel cells can get clogged up with impurities that are in natural gas. And hence the efficiency of Bloom Box would go down over time. Factoring in long time needed to pay for itself, it will need maintenance. And if the maintenance is replacing expensive cells, then that defeats the whole purpose.

 

[rewebster]

I paid $600 for a nicer 'high end' VHS when they first came out----if the 'boxes' are as good as they imply, the cost will come down (and no doubt will be 'improved' at the same time)...

I think they mentioned filters---maybe they will be improved also

 

[humanino]

I suppose the bulk cost of the Bloom Box are the cells. But fuel cells can get clogged up with impurities that are in natural gas. And hence the efficiency of Bloom Box would go down over time. Factoring in long time needed to pay for itself, it will need maintenance. And if the maintenance is replacing expensive cells, then that defeats the whole purpose.

I do not really disagree with you, at least I think I understand, but I believe no matter how we approach this, it will remain pure speculation. All this noise only leads me to one conclusion : the success or failure will be driven by commercials and communication rather than facts from the data sheets, and as they say : there is no such thing as bad advertising.

 

[rootX]

Would have been nicer simply sticking to the wireless part :). He is trying to go for two targets at once and neither of them are commercially feasible yet. We need improvements even in smart grid.

 

[rewebster]

Would have been nicer simply sticking to the wireless part :). He is trying to go for two targets at once and neither of them are commercially feasible yet.

I would have hated to buy a computer in the 1960's

 

[rootX]

I would have hated to buy a computer in the 1960's

No, it would be like buying computer in 1940s/

 

[Proton Soup]

I suppose the bulk cost of the Bloom Box are the cells. But fuel cells can get clogged up with impurities that are in natural gas. And hence the efficiency of Bloom Box would go down over time. Factoring in long time needed to pay for itself, it will need maintenance. And if the maintenance is replacing expensive cells, then that defeats the whole purpose.

i would put money on that being the cheapest part, and probably why he's been able to get so much interest: doing it without platinum. if you can knock out the cells cheaply, then you can afford to replace them at regular intervals with sufficient markup (which they seem to have established, already).

 

[russ_watters]

What is wrong with that ? Suggesting that american people use too much power, and implementing a reasonable reduction in the design of his box looks to me like a very good idea.

The huge box was not for a private house obviously.

I think you misunderstood the objection: It isn't about the comparison between the US and Europe, it is holding up a small cube and saying this can power a house, when in reality you need a box the size of a refrigerator (probably). It is unnecessarily showy. It makes him look like a fraud when he plays games like that.

There is actually a secret, you do not know how the coating is manufactured.

I'm sure, but in order for this product to be anything more than a failure, they need one or both of the following:

1. To be a lot cheaper than other similar products. He claims he can, but right now he isn't. And given how much money he's spent, he'll need to sell a lot of these things at a high price to break even financially any time soon. This is the more important.
2. Higher efficiency than other similar products. If he gets 40%, that'll be enough to beat a gas turbine generator, but only if his prices drop by an order of magnitude.

 

[russ_watters]

that's minimalizing it---that is what makes a breakthrough...

like, instead of using burnt bamboo, to tungsten

That's overstating it. If his different material doesn't make it a lot cheaper or a lot more efficient, it's like comparing one steel alloy to another. Just being different does not imply better.

 

[russ_watters]

I do not really disagree with you, at least I think I understand, but I believe no matter how we approach this, it will remain pure speculation. All this noise...

That's just it - what is the point of all this? Why not just tell us what the efficiency is? Why the used-car salesmanship? That makes me not trust him.

...only leads me to one conclusion : the success or failure will be driven by commercials and communication rather than facts from the data sheets, and as they say : there is no such thing as bad advertising.

Completely wrong. This is a product that in order to succeed can't just be a niche product for a handful of hippies who want to look cool. It has to be truly commercially viable. Unlike a Seguey, hype alone won't sell it because it's only real goal is to save you money. It is far too easy to do a payback calculation to determine if you should buy one and far too expensive to not check the economics before doing so.

 

[russ_watters]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the wiki: "On 24 February 2010, Sridhar told Todd Woody of the The New York Times that his devices are making electricity for 8–10 cents/kwh using natural gas..."

Natural gas costs about $12/million BTU (residential) or $.041 per kWh. So based on that claim, it would appear to have an efficiency of 41-51%.

 

[Bystander]

Titanium oxide ceramics were going to keep countertops sterile, reduce mold and mildew, and yield self-cleaning paints (photocatalytic oxidation of organic compounds) a couple years back; there have been odd ads in the past year about paints (can't find anything right now), and vague impressions of self-cleaning indestructible kitchen gadgets being marketed (again, nothing specific from Google searches).

So, the kid comes up with a porous sintered kitchen tile, dopes opposite sides with transition metal oxides (or, oxide-powdered metal mix), cooks the glaze into the tile faces and presents us with the air-garbage fuel cell. Purities, dopants, and doping levels remain proprietary --- but, the costs don't drop since titanium dioxide is already commercial in million ton per year quantities at the purity required for paint fillers, and the purity and particle size range he needs for his tiles look to be rather product specific, and therefore, permanently expensive.

Does this thread need to be appended to the Bloom thread in Gen. Eng.?

 

[Cyrus]

FV96eLggmD8&playnext_from=TL&videos...rec_index[/youtube] Ran across this today.