Is Center of Mass a vector or scalar quantity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether the center of mass and center of gravity are vector or scalar quantities. Participants explore the definitions and implications of these concepts in the context of physics, particularly focusing on their representation in three-dimensional space.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the center of mass is a vector quantity because it represents a position in three-dimensional space, which requires coordinates (x, y, z) to define.
  • Others contend that while points in space can be represented by vectors, the center of mass does not possess intrinsic directional properties that are invariant under coordinate transformations, suggesting it should not be classified as a vector.
  • A participant mentions that points are defined by vectors, and thus the center of mass, being a point, is also a vector.
  • Another viewpoint emphasizes that the position vector of the center of mass is dependent on the choice of reference frame, leading to the conclusion that it lacks intrinsic properties characteristic of true vector quantities.
  • Some participants express confusion about the definitions and relationships between points, vectors, and the center of mass, indicating a need for further clarification.
  • There is a suggestion that the original question may be misphrased, as it could be more accurately framed in terms of the location of the center of mass rather than its classification as a vector or scalar.
  • One participant introduces the concept of affine spaces, proposing that the center of mass and center of gravity might be better understood within that framework.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the center of mass is a vector or scalar quantity. Multiple competing views are presented, with some asserting it is a vector and others arguing against this classification based on the nature of position and reference frames.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the intrinsic properties of the center of mass and the dependence on coordinate systems. There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions and implications of vector quantities versus scalar quantities in this context.

  • #31
Aniruddha@94 said:
@Cutter Ketch I agree with your statements. In fact I was going to write something similar in my previous post. I get that they have a difference; that the direction for position doesn't even mean anything without a coordinate system, while for the other quantities it does. But is that a good enough reason to say that position is not a vector? I wasn't sure.
Seeing @robphy's post I understand the difference ( it's so subtle).

Well, since we make vectors to represent position and add those vectors to find center of mass and many other manipulations, I have been careful not to say that position isn't a vector. I can certainly understand the point of view that things we represent with vectors are vector quantities. However if you ask me if it is a vector quantity that sounds like a different question to me. I hear does that physical property have a direction and a magnitude? In any case I'm pretty sure failing to make the distinction was the reason for the OPs confusion and incredulous responses before I chimed in, so I wanted to draw the line between math and physics.
 
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  • #32
Another way to distinguish the 3-component-objects that describe "position" from those that describe "displacement"
is to say that
a "displacement" (from one position to another) is a 3-d vector (whose magnitude is independent of choice of origin and orientation of axes).
but a "position" is merely a labeling by 3 numbers (whose values (and sum-of-squares) depend on the choice of origin and choice of orientation of axes).
Again, it wouldn't mean anything (independent of frame) to generally add two positions... but one can get a weighted average of positions.
Thus, everyone will agree on where the center of mass is located (its position in space)... but not necessarily agree on how to label it.

Similarly, an "elapsed time" (from one clock reading to another) is a 1-d vector (in some abstract space) whose magnitude is independent of choice of origin (of time).
However, a "clock reading" is merely a labeling by one number (whose value depends on the choice of origin of time).
Generally, it wouldn't mean anything (independent of origin) to generally add two clock readings ... but one can get an average of clock readings.
Everyone will agree on when the halfway-time occurs... but not necessarily agree on how to label it.
 
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