Is Gravi-GUT a candidate theory of everything?

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Discussion Overview

This thread explores the concept of Gravi-GUT (Gravity Grand Unified Theory) as a potential theory of everything, focusing on its theoretical underpinnings, implications, and criticisms. The discussion encompasses various aspects of theoretical physics, including the unification of forces, the role of gravity, and the challenges posed by established theorems such as Coleman-Mandula.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss the foundational goals of Gravi-GUT, aiming to unify gravity with the weak and strong forces, referencing peer-reviewed papers that propose specific models.
  • There is mention of the chiral formulation of Gravi-GUT, which incorporates SU(2) structures to potentially avoid conflicts with the Coleman-Mandula theorem.
  • Some participants express skepticism regarding the viability of Gravi-GUT theories, particularly concerning their compliance with established theoretical frameworks and the implications of noncompact gauge groups.
  • Concerns are raised about the treatment of gravity as a gauge theory and the potential vacuum instability that may arise from noncompactness in gauge groups.
  • Participants note that while some Gravi-GUT models may evade Coleman-Mandula, the conditions under which they do so remain contentious and uncertain.
  • There is discussion about the implications of using Ashtekar variables in quantizing gravity and how this relates to the broader context of quantum gravity theories.
  • Some participants question the feasibility of combining gravitational and standard model symmetries within the same framework, particularly in the context of the Pati-Salam model.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some advocating for the potential of Gravi-GUT theories while others remain skeptical about their theoretical soundness and practical applicability. No consensus is reached regarding the validity or future of Gravi-GUT as a theory of everything.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include unresolved mathematical steps and the dependence on specific definitions of gauge groups and symmetries. The discussion reflects a variety of assumptions and interpretations regarding the implications of Gravi-GUT theories.

  • #31
ChrisF said:
If c alone fully characterizes vacuum electromagnetism
The term "vacuum" might be causing a problem here.

##c## alone fully characterizes source-free electromagnetism, at least classically. That's obvious just from looking at Maxwell's Equations. Even in SI units, if the source terms all vanish, ##\mu_0## and ##\epsilon_0## only appear in the product ##\mu_0 \epsilon_0## in the displacement current term, which of course is just ##1 / c^2##. Just one parameter. And of course you can then derive wave equations for both the electric and magnetic fields that have them propagating at speed ##c##.

It's when you have to deal with sources that you need a second parameter to describe the strength of the interaction with the sources--which in the modern view is best expressed by ##\alpha## since that's the dimensionless coupling constant for the electromagnetic interaction.
 
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  • #32
ChrisF said:
If c alone fully characterizes vacuum electromagnetism, then Z₀ must be derivable from c without invoking ε₀ or μ₀ individually. Can you show that derivation, or cite a reference that does?
c gives you their product. Z₀ gives you their ratio. You need both to recover either one. Redistributing ε₀ into charge dimensions in CGS doesn't eliminate it — it moves it.
Not according to Wikipedia. The first 3 entries in the first column involve only ##c\,##:
1776553526184.webp

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_units)
How do you explain that?
 
  • #33
renormalize said:
Not according to Wikipedia. The first 3 entries in the first column involve only ##c\,##:
View attachment 371033
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_units)
How do you explain that?
Your table actually illustrates the point I was making.

Rows 2 and 3 show that Gaussian units set epsilon_0 and mu_0 to dimensionless 1 by convention. Row 1 then gives Z_0 = 4*pi/c. But that 4*pi didn't come from c — it came from the convention in rows 2 and 3 that absorbed epsilon_0 into the unit definitions.

Row 4 confirms this. The fine structure constant in Gaussian units is alpha = (e^G)^2/(hbar*c). In SI it's alpha = (e^SI)^2/(4*pi*epsilon_0*hbar*c). These give the same dimensionless number only because e_Gaussian = e_SI /sqrt(4*pi*epsilon_0). The epsilon_0 that vanished from Z_0 is inside the Gaussian charge.

This is exactly what "redistributed, not eliminated" means. Gaussian units move epsilon_0 from the field equations into the charge definition. The physics — that electromagnetic coupling has a strength alpha independent of propagation speed c — is the same in both columns.

PeterDonis made this point well in his previous post: source-free EM needs only c, but coupling requires a second independent parameter alpha. Your own table shows two different notations for the same two-parameter physics.

And respectfully — I was asked for peer-reviewed references. Wikipedia is a useful summary, but shouldn't the same standard apply in both directions?
 

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