Is Harvard President's View on Gender and Science Justified?

[dextercioby]

I'd better not be,or my girlfriend dumps me...

Daniel.

Danielle.

Nah,Daniel.

 

[franznietzsche]

Whoa, wait, you are a female, or your brain is female according to the test?

So far, I've found that every physicist scores female on that test. Ok, so there aren't many, it's rare.

I got neutral. But i got them all right too. what does that make me? What am i?

[insert identity crisis]

 

[Evo]

I got neutral. But i got them all right too. what does that make me? What am i?

[insert identity crisis]

You are a bit of an anomaly. You might self destruct.

Dextercioby, good, I thought you were male, even better you have a female brain. I've found some brilliant minds scoring female.

 

[franznietzsche]

You are a bit of an anomoly. You might self destruct.

Dextercioby, good, I thought you were male, even better you have a female brain. I've found some brilliant minds scoring female.

I'll probably self-destruct anyway. Its inevitable.

 

[Moonbear]

Does that quiz score anyone male? I guess the colorblind men won't get that rainbow pattern one right. I timed out on the first question though (I didn't realize I was being timed). I couldn't find the strawberry! LOL! If it was dipped in chocolate I might have found it faster. I'd have probably scored a bit differently if I wasn't half asleep already.

 

[franznietzsche]

Does that quiz score anyone male? I guess the colorblind men won't get that rainbow pattern one right. I timed out on the first question though (I didn't realize I was being timed). I couldn't find the strawberry! LOL! If it was dipped in chocolate I might have found it faster. I'd have probably scored a bit differently if I wasn't half asleep already.

Excuses excuses.

 

[Curious3141]

Then you'd love me. I ask men out. I pay for their dinner. I hold doors open for them.

Take this test, it's fun. Do you have a male or female brain? http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/intelligence/brain_sex_quiz.shtml

My brain is female apparently.

 

[Moonbear]

Excuses excuses.

LOL! At least I am female when it's telling me I have a female brain.

 

[Bystander]

Does that quiz score anyone male? (snip)

Replay hitting correct answers as fast as the mouse will click equals MF; replay counting to three before clicking the female answers correctly equals MF; replay hitting incorrect answers on strawberry and rainbow equals M.

From their evaluation, "...women are good at ... distinguishing between subtle hints and details..." i.e., the test is not constructed for distinguishing between M and F science and math professionals, fields that are all about detail and subtlety.

Having coached about a dozen females (spouses, daughters, nieces, cousins, friends) through various math and science courses, the thing that presented the most difficulty was getting the tutees to pay the necessary attention to detail --- there was definitely a cultural barrier invoking some great mystery to understanding --- break that by playing the "broken record" titled "Pay attention to detail," and the mystery goes away. Who done it? Public school teachers: "fractions are really hard; girls never go very far in math;" and, all the other malarkey --- I could have cheerfully killed several teachers, uni level instructors, and administrators.

 

[franznietzsche]

Yeah why do people think fractions are hard?

I'll never forget my algebra 2/trig teacher: When you see a fraction don't panic. Its just a number. Thats all. Nothing special. When people see fractions they panic and freeze. Don't. Its nothing but a number, just like 1, or 2. Just a number.

 

[Polly]

The Arts are also an area where women are also generally superior. This is almost definitely a social trend as my school is full of rednecks so Fine Arts are "gay".

Now THIS is outrageous! and I will take a plane and step inside the box any day of the year to testify your e-manhood for you Smurfee .

 

[franznietzsche]

Now THIS is outrageous! and I will take a plane and step inside the box any day of the year to testify your e-manhood for you Smurfee .

Only if you like rednecks commenting about how they'd like to tie you to a tree and...

 

[gravenewworld]

Quite contrary to belief I think girls are much more encouraged to do well in science and math and school in general than their male counter parts. In every single class I have taken at college the over achievers are always girls. If you look at graduate school departments in science and math they always say "female and minority applicants are strongly encouraged to apply." If you look at every summer internship/REU research opportunity they will say they favor female and minority applicants. Girls are always favored in the classroom in high school, grade, and middle schools. There may be a shortage of females in math and science, but why isn't there a furor over why there are a small amount of males who are in say things like English or Nursing (which pays well may dad is one)? Girls, I think, would have a much easier time getting accepted into more highly prestigious graduate school programs and jobs in math and science just simply because they are female. White males are becoming one of the most discriminated against groups today (and before you get pissed off, I am not a white male).

 

[Polly]

Only if you like rednecks commenting about how they'd like to tie you to a tree and...

Try some warm milk and go to bed Franz :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

 

[franznietzsche]

Try some warm milk and go to bed Franz :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Sleep is for the dead!

And I'm currently approaching the 24 hour mark, and show no signs of stopping, i haven't even had coffee yet.

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah why do people think fractions are hard?

I'll never forget my algebra 2/trig teacher: When you see a fraction don't panic. Its just a number. Thats all. Nothing special. When people see fractions they panic and freeze. Don't. Its nothing but a number, just like 1, or 2. Just a number.

I wonder if that's all there is to the obstacle of learning math (not just for women, but in general, there are a LOT of people of both sexes who just don't learn math well and think it's too hard). Way back when I learned fractions, nobody said it was hard. In fact, fractions were taught with the examples that made the most sense in a real world setting: slices of pie, measuring lumber, halving or doubling recipes (this probably only works in the US where we have quarter, third, and half cups; the rest of you have to wait until you get to decimals to play with recipes). Of course, growing up with a father who was a contractor meant I was always around fractions (I was always Daddy's helper in the workshop), so there was nothing threatening about them at all for me. Maybe other kids get told they are hard and believe that. I think as soon as a teacher or parent says something is hard to learn, it gives the kid an excuse to not try to master it.

 

[Les Sleeth]

. . . the statement referred to math and science, not just math.

I personally don't have a problem accepting that something about the way a male brain develops generally makes it easier for him to do math than the way a woman's brain develops (though I don't think we should stereotype, or make public statements which contribute to stereotyping). But then, I am convinced that women's brains have developed in such a way that makes certain intelligence skills easier for them than men too. But in terms of math skill giving the edge to men for doing science, I don't see that.

In any male dominated area of society, those in control are going to elevate to the highest value what they are best at. Look at business. It used to be that strict authoritarianism prevaled as the management standard. Is it just a coincidence that as women became more influential in society, and entered the work place more, management ideals changed (and for the better, by far)?

What I think is that women and men, in in general excel at different sets of skills of which neither set makes one more "intelligent" than the other. When they are combined is when we get the good stuff. Right now I think the unique intellectual skills of women are very much undervalued and underutilized. I can't see how that wouldn't be true for science too.

 

[JasonRox]

I didn't read the entire thread, but read some arguments.

Within my experience, guys don't get encouraged to do well in math either. Everyone looks down on math for some reason, guy or girl.

Note: They kicked us out of the computer room. THIS SCHOOL SUCKS. I tell which school it is later. It sucks so bad, the president left with no warning.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Have you considered that the problem might lie in "outspoken" people like this Harvard egghead telling females throughout their lives that they're inferior in math and science ? Teachers are highly influential on their students, if many teachers share the bias of this Harvard guy, we're on a very slippery slope for the future of our female students. I think there's merit in attributing a large part of the disparity to discouragement and social stigmatisation.

Can you look at what our society has done to impede female greats like Sophie Germain (aka "Monsieur" Le Blanc) and Hypatia and honestly say that bias and prejudice don't have a big role to play in the status quo ?

It's interesting that you mention Hypatia and Sophie Germain. Both of them were oddities in the they were raised by mathematician fathers, apparently without too much female interference. Emmy Noether was another of those. I don't know anything about the upbringing of the other famous women mathematicians of old, Sonya Kovalevska and Maria Agnese.

But these are not good examples for you. Hypatia was murdered for her religious politics, not her math. Germaine got her writings out, and was welcomed by Gauss when she dropped her alias. And the other famous ladies succeeded too, or they wouldn't be famous.

The mathematical community has bent over backwards with outreach and counseling to try to bring in more women mathematicians. It hasn't worked. Nobody is cheering over that.

 

[Moonbear]

The mathematical community has bent over backwards with outreach and counseling to try to bring in more women mathematicians. It hasn't worked. Nobody is cheering over that.

I think there are two separate issues that need to be addressed there and the causes may be different.

First, perhaps the easier of the two, is retaining women who have a demonstrated interest and aptitude in mathematics. For women who enroll in universities as math majors, are they dropping out of the major at any faster rate than men? It's a demanding major, and since so few start out in it in the first place, even if the same percentage dropped out of the major as with men, there would be very few left to graduate. For those who do graduate, what do they do after that? I agree, they probably have a pretty good shot at getting into a graduate school if they choose to apply, but are they applying, and if not, why not? This is an easy group to identify since universities will have alumni records of who graduated in that major. Has anybody just asked them what career path they chose and why? This seems like an incredibly obvious thing to do, so has it been done?

The second is in attracting women into math in the first place; women who may have the aptitude for it but who have not demonstrated the interest. In this case, all the efforts of the mathematical community may be of no use if they are coming too late. Now, one possibility is that most women just don't want to be mathematicians, and if there's something else they'd rather be doing with their life, then it's their life to live. But, if there are some who might enter it if their eyes were opened to the possibility earlier, that opportunity should be offered. So, what might deter women from math? We've addressed some already, such as differences in teaching, or encouragement by teachers, parents and peers. Could another be a sex difference in risk-taking? Math (and other sciences) is a tough discipline to study, something that most young people don't see as providing many employment options, and highly competitive. Could it be that the girls/women simply see this as too risky and choose safer paths to follow, while boys/men are more willing to take risks, so more of them will give it a shot?

A third possibility is something I've personally encountered, and that is the traditional gender roles as the man as the provider, and the women's career as secondary. What this translates into is that if a husband needs to move to further his career, the women uproot and follow, but the men seem far more reluctant to uproot and follow the women if they need to relocate for their career, or the general issue that one of them needs to give in if both have careers like that, and too often it's the women who forgo advancing their career in favor of moving with their husbands. I have a friend who dropped out of grad school because her husband was a few years ahead and when he started applying for postdocs, she neither wanted to live separately nor was she willing to start over at the new university her husband moved to (too few of her exams transferred and she'd have had to start taking classes over again...the second program seemed to have very different requirements from the first one). Knowing he'd be moving yet again in just a few years, she knew she couldn't finish the degree there either, especially with needing to retake so many courses and exams. In my own case, I took the opposite approach of ending a relationship when it became apparent the guy I was dating wasn't willing/able to move as many times as I'd need to move (to his credit, it was a mutual decision because he also wasn't going to ask me to compromise my career by staying with him and not moving...I considered a career change, but we both knew I wouldn't be happy with the alternative).

 

[Zeteg]

I have a friend who dropped out of grad school because her husband was a few years ahead and when he started applying for postdocs, she neither wanted to live separately nor was she willing to start over at the new university her husband moved to (too few of her exams transferred and she'd have had to start taking classes over again...the second program seemed to have very different requirements from the first one). Knowing he'd be moving yet again in just a few years, she knew she couldn't finish the degree there either, especially with needing to retake so many courses and exams. In my own case, I took the opposite approach of ending a relationship when it became apparent the guy I was dating wasn't willing/able to move as many times as I'd need to move (to his credit, it was a mutual decision because he also wasn't going to ask me to compromise my career by staying with him and not moving...I considered a career change, but we both knew I wouldn't be happy with the alternative).

That's the reason I've stopped looking for people 'till after University :D >=\

Okay, not being off topic: Since less women will probably apply because of this, I wonder if the marks will actually go up. If they do, then of course, the president could shove it in the people's faces. However, if it doesn't, I'm sure he'll be subject to quite a bit of insults.

If the marks do go up, I wonder if it'll be partly because of less "distractions". Hmm...

 

[Les Sleeth]

A couple of interesting studies have indicated the influence of gender on choice. The choices weren't about math, but demonstrate physiological influences nonetheless.

One is Alexander's research. An excerpt from an article found here says, "It’s commonly believed that boys and girls learn what types of toys they should like based solely on society’s expectations, but psychologist Gerianne Alexander’s work with vervet monkeys is challenging that notion.

Alexander, whose research focuses on sex differences in behavior and the biological factors that influence them, examined the monkeys as they interacted with toys. She and her collaborator, Melissa Hines of the University of London, found that the monkeys’ toy preferences were consistent along gender lines with those of human children. The study was published earlier this year in "Evolution and Human Behavior."

Though the monkeys had no concept of a "boy" toy and a "girl" toy, they still showed the same gender preferences in playing with the toys, Alexander says. That is, compared to female monkeys, male monkeys spent more time with "boy" toys, and the female monkeys, compared to their male counterparts, spent more time with "girl" toys, she notes."


Another study connects hormones to toy choices. An excerpt from an article found http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_41/ai_n6032943 says, "The strongest evidence of hormonal influences on human behavioral development has come from studies of childhood play. Girls with the genetic disorder congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) are exposed to high levels of androgen prenatally (Pang et al., 1980; Wudy, Dorr, Solleder, Djalali, & Homoki, 1999). . . . Despite postnatal treatment, girls with CAH show altered play behavior (see Hines, 2002, 2004, for reviews). They are more likely than other girls to prefer toys that are normally preferred by boys (e.g., cars) and less likely to prefer toys that are normally preferred by girls (e.g., dolls). They also show increased preferences for boys as playmates and for boy-typical activities. These differences in play behavior are seen on questionnaires, in interviews, and in direct observation of toy choices. They also are seen when girls with CAH are compared to unaffected female relatives, as well as to controls matched for background factors like age and parental socioeconomic status. Similar outcomes have been seen for girls exposed to high levels of androgenic hormones prenatally because their mothers were prescribed hormones during pregnancy (Ehrhardt & Money, 1967). In addition, normal variability in maternal testosterone levels during pregnancy has been found to relate positively to male-typical play behavior in female offspring at the age of 3 1/2 years (Hines et al., 2002a)."

 

[FulhamFan3]

Let's not kid ourselves. There are differences between men and women beyond the physical traits. That doesn't mean one is better than the other, just different. The discrepency in science and math aptitude isn't because women just don't understand that sort of thing but has to do with education methods. The way science/math is taught with a professor lecturing and students listening and taking notes favors males. Females on the other hand learn better in a social environment where they are in a small group and can discuss the topic. All this is based on a news report that I remember but can't cite.

If I had a school I would make classrooms all female and split them into groups and have male classrooms remain traditional. Or at least I would like to see large scale study of this type of format.

 

[FulhamFan3]

oh and this is a better test
http://community.sparknotes.com/gender/

 

[mattmns]

First, I think the whole issue is Math, not science. As far as I know there are many women who are biologists, psychologists, etc (percentage, not number). However, when it comes to physics there is this sudden decline. What is the difference between physics and these other sciences? The obvious choice is the insane amount of math. Also, I know many of you will not clasify psychology as a science, but that is a matter of definition.

I think as soon as a teacher or parent says something is hard to learn, it gives the kid an excuse to not try to master it.

YES! And this, unforutnately, comes back to the ladies. Elementary teachers are the first teachers kids truly encounter, other than their parents of course, and most elementary teachers are women. As has already been discussed, most women do not like math, or major in it at least. Then these women who do not like math become elementary teachers, and are suddenly teaching their students, our kids, that math is useless and hard. This, however, is true of most elementary teachers, male and female. I have a history class this semester that is filled with elementary teachers, and I hear these people talking about their college elementary math class and how difficult it is. Makes me quite sad. This is why I hate elementary teachers. They all think, ohh these are little seven year old kids we are teaching, this is cake. Personally I think elementary teachers should be able to teach all the way through high school, but this, like everything I said, is just my opinion, and has gotten way off topic

 

[Les Sleeth]

YES! And this, unforutnately, comes back to the ladies. Elementary teachers are the first teachers kids truly encounter, other than their parents of course, and most elementary teachers are women. As has already been discussed, most women do not like math, or major in it at least. Then these women who do not like math become elementary teachers, and are suddenly teaching their students, our kids, that math is useless and hard. This, however, is true of most elementary teachers, male and female.

I think it's a reasonable theory, but it doesn't preclude there being biological factors affecting the issue as well. In the studies I cited above, for example, there could be hormonal factors which encourage children to play with certain toys, and it could also be true that social factors encourage children to play with certain toys and discourage them from playing with other types of toys.

Similarly, there could be physiological differences between the genders which make math easier for most men (and, let's not forget the other side of this, better verbal and communication skills for women), and it could also be true there are social factors which discourage or fail to adequately encourage girls to explore their math capabilities.

 

[Astronuc]

it could also be true there are social factors which discourage or fail to adequately encourage girls to explore their math capabilities.

Or it could be parents/adults who perpetuate the gender distinction.

How many parents (and even other adult relatives or friends of the family) would buy a doll or a 'girl' toy for a boy, or buy a model car, ship or plane for a girl.

Ostensibly, some/many parents want their sons to grow up 'manly', and their daughters to be 'feminine', and that influences how boys and girls are dressed and what gifts they receive.

There is also extensive cultural influence (pressure), particularly TV in the modern industrial nations, but also in printed media as well, which tend to perpetuate the status quo - namely a gender distinction.

 

[Moonbear]

From an unsubstantiated, anectdotal perspective, I wonder how much of the gender differences in play behavior are influenced by paternal rather than maternal interactions. This is something that has been running through my mind quite a bit lately. I have a number of friends/relatives who have small children now (in the infant/toddler/preschool range). When I see the kids with their mothers, I don't really notice any big differences in how they are treated or how their mothers encourage play, but as soon as their fathers walk into the room, it doesn't matter what toy they are playing with, it seems the fathers who play with them who are the ones that play differently if they have a girl or boy. I've heard of studies on maternal behavior during rearing of children, but have not seen any on paternal behavior (other than presence vs absence of the father, which isn't what I'm driving at here). Take as an example a toy both genders will play with, a stuffed animal. When the mothers are around, they all seem to show the kid to cuddle the animal (or tuck it into bed, or just fuss over how dirty it is and can it have a bath in the washing machine), but enter the father and with girls, they don't really do anything to discourage the cuddling and nurturing the mother taught, but then with boys, they'll grab the animal and play that it's attacking the boy or wrestling, or stomping on all the other toys. Even on the day the babies arrived from the hospital, the mothers are all holding and rocking and busy just trying to keep up with feeding and changing diapers. Hand a girl baby to her father, and he's so gentle, holding her all the time, rocking, etc. Hand a boy baby to his father, and he's bouncing and waking him up to play, etc. There's just a difference in how they are treated from day one. But, I don't know if that's just among the people I know or if it's generalizable.

So, getting back to the biology vs physics difference, there is another social reason why a lot of women get into biology, and that is they often enter pre-med, not intending to do research. Medicine is a nurturing career, while we picture the physicists as recluses (not saying they are, just saying that's how they are perceived by children).

 

[selfAdjoint]

Just found this link to an interesting map, percentage of tenured women mathematicians in Europe, by country. What is Portugal doing right?

http://www.awis.org/resource/statistics/euromath.jpg

 

[JasonRox]

Just found this link to an interesting map, percentage of tenured women mathematicians in Europe, by country. What is Portugal doing right?

http://www.awis.org/resource/statistics/euromath.jpg

There is this thing in Portugal where they believe that learning math will get rid of aids. That's why it is 50/50.

It's not that bad.

It just seems like mathematics is not the topic of choice for females.

I try to avoid this type of thing because it is too controversial.