News Is Israel Willing to Give Up Arab Neighborhoods in Jerusalem for Peace?

[Yonoz]

All I am saying is that perhaps firing back is not the best way to stop the future rocket attacks. By the way, no one should tolerate such "acts of aggression" (EVEN if they are doing so to get even with you). Any educated person will understand that firing back will do nothing more than inciting more attacks (like it or not), creating more sympathisers (locally and abroad) and "extremists".

Those are assumptions again. So far, firing back seems to be the best way to ensure the safety of Israeli civilians, which is the ultimate goal. Experience proves a policy of restraint only leads to a violent breakdown, as it did with Hizbullah, Palestinian organizations and the Arab states.

Sure, it certainly "feels good" for the public and poll pleasing, (in the same way that paracetamol can lower your fever but it can't cure your pneumonia; and then too much paracetamol would lead to kidney problems ), but, as I said before unless you kill them all, it is not going to stop the rocket from coming (which is your original purpose in this quest).

More assumptions. So far the only actions are self-defensive, i.e. attacking the launchers and their operators, not retaliatory - e.g. attacking Hamas infrastructure.

So somehow by firing back you have not just contradicted your initial purpose of reducing the loss of life on your side from Kassam rockets (or whatever), you have also kept yourself in this endless cycle of strikes and counter-strikes. Remember the "business tycoon" example, with a bit of well-designed adverstisements by your opponents, you would then be seen as the aggressor in the eyes of their masses, creating more potential reasons/excuses for them to attack.

More false assumptions.

That is why I believe the "correct" education for the current/future generations will be important towards achieving peace in the longer run.

Agreed.

The arts of war is not as 1-dimensional as "you hit us, we hit back; and if we hit hard enough, we will win" and the masses on both side (IF they value peace and good standard of living in the long run) must learn this. Put it simply: intelligent ppl tend to out-smart their problems and won't rely on spontaneous responses that are mostly influenced by emotions. Note there are many ways to get to the same goal, all I am saying here is just one potential example.

You're patronizing again.
Then again, you're making the unintelligent assumption that "intelligent people out-smart their problems".

This kind of thing must be done multilaterally. Of course, at this very moment, education can't even happen in Palestine when there are hardly any properly funded schools, kids spending more times playing war games than reading books,... See the problem here? I am not contradicting myself here. What I am trying to say is that they are living their lives like there is no tomorrow, no future; they feel like they have nothing to lose, so may as well bring down a few more "suckers" next door with them.

You watch too much CNN, BBC, or (heaven forbid) France 2.
In Gaza the situation is indeed quite bad - but there is nothing we can do to better that. Even the currently operating crossings that are used to transport the most basic humanitarian aid are under attack by the Gazans' own government.

In doing so, they'd also get this false sense of pride; they'd feel they did something for their cause. Ironically, they are doing no one any favors in the shorter or longer run. By the way, those so-called rogue states that "support" Palestine by selling them arms are not really "supporting" them, they are just encouraging them to go more isolated, deeper into darkness and away from prosperity; and use them as pawns.

Agreed.

When people are poor and lacking a future (in their view), anything can seems reasonable in their view (even the destruction of your country) because to them they have nothing more to lose. This is the crux of the problem. BUT if they do see US dollars as green, that means there is a hope that those so-called lunatics are not so lunatic after all because they see the value in wealth. Who doesn't? That itself presents an opportunity for reconciliation. And Israel being the "stronger" side (I think) economically and in other aspects of development, could take the lead just as South Korea did in their march towards potential peace with North Korea (the leaders met earlier this week in NK for the second time. In 2000, the then SK president made a historical visit to KIM Jong-Il after "first secretly giving millions to the NK" to show their goodwill (of course SK has their own interest: they want to free some of their SK prisoners). NK on the other hand, after decades of severe poverty realizes that retaliations and egos will not get them any food and future. They have probably reached a breaking point and started to think "reasonably" and "rationally"; to think long term; to think how they can get out of their rat-holes and perhaps start enjoying life. If Kim doesn't want to lose the support of his ppl and army, he has no choice but to yield and a smart move too. Being headstrong won't get him anywhere; one must "out-smart".)

You have no idea do you?
Palestinian minister admits aid millions lost

An estimated £362.5 million has flowed into Palestinian government coffers from abroad since the election that brought Hamas to power and ushered in a period of internal conflict that came close to all-out civil war.

The European Union alone provided £59.5 million last year and sent a far greater sum directly to hospitals, power generation projects and to families in need.
...
He was reluctant to say how he would do that, perhaps understandably, given that unpaid security forces have a habit of barging into government offices with guns blazing, and that gunmen recently shot up the outside of his office.

Now some of Mr Abbas's presidential guard is assigned to his premises - a stark reminder of the connection between restoring security and bringing finances under control. "This will be extremely difficult," he said. "It's virtually impossible."

I said there is an opportunity because when the Palestinians have moved out of their current "live like no tomorrow" state, they will too value wealth and stability. Once they've got their Plasma TV, they won't want to trade that for a wooden box. When they have regained their sense of real purpose in life, they won't fall back to playing with rockets and this endless loop of killing themselves or getting killed; they won't want to return to the rat holes and play cat-and-mouse. Instead they would become smarter just like the North Koreans and doing the right thing not just for the sake of themselves but others too to gain more respect which will lead to more outside help. That's my expectation for someone who can see the value in wealth (of course not going to happen overnight, it will take a long time). So, for example, an economical bargaining could be a good start, then couple it with long term education programs. Yeah, if you can't find trust, you may buy some occasionally. Remember to alleivate poverty and change the attitude of a society, unilateral effort is not going be enough. If you see sincere actions by your opponent, you would start out being skeptical and then when the goodwill gesture is pretty much maintained then you will begin to shift your expectations and eventually trust may be rebuilt. Sincere dialogs and the resolve for lasting stability will be the pre-requisite for both sides.

I think I have been talking for too long on this board and perhaps it is time to stop. Whether you (or others) agree with anything I've said, frankly, it doesn't matter and I don't care. In the end, one has one's own expectations, ideals and goals in life, my defintion of good standard may be your nightmare or vice-versa. My hope is that more and more people will eventually pick the "smarter" option.

Watch less BBC.

 

[Art]

Yonoz you are either deliberately posting blatant untruths or you are incredibly and hopelessly uninformed.

Those are assumptions again. So far, firing back seems to be the best way to ensure the safety of Israeli civilians, which is the ultimate goal. Experience proves a policy of restraint only leads to a violent breakdown, as it did with Hizbullah, Palestinian organizations and the Arab states.

Lets begin by looking at Israel's 'restraint' around the time frame you referenced and to avoid any argument re the accuracy of the data I'll use Israeli sources.

Israeli Casualties: Adults and Minors
September 2000 to May 5, 2002

Civilian Injuries: 2,707
Civilian Deaths: 319


Israeli Fatalities of Minors Under Age 18
October 2001 to May 5, 2002

Israelis Minors Killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories: 14 (ages 5 months to 17)

Israeli Minors Killed by Palestinians in Israel: 37 (ages 7 months to 17)

Source: B'Tselem, Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Palestinian Casualties: Adults and Minors in the West Bank and Gaza Strip

September 2000 to May 6, 2002

Injuries: 19,189
Deaths: 1,538

Source: Palestine Red Crescent Society

Palestinian Fatalities of Minors Under Age 18
October 2001 to May 5, 2002
Palestinian Minors Killed by Israeli Security Forces in Occupied Territories;

210 (ages 4 months to 17)

Palestinian Minors Killed by Israeli Citizens in Occupied Territories
1 (age 2 months) (by gunfire)

Palestinian Minors Killed by Israeli Security Forces in Israel
1 (age 14) (by Israeli police force)

Deaths of Palestinian Minors Caused by Delay in Obtaining Medical Treatment Due to Israeli Restriction of Movement
8 (stillborn to age 11)

Source: B'Tselem, Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

It seems Israel's policy of restraint was murder for the Palestinians .

More assumptions. So far the only actions are self-defensive, i.e. attacking the launchers and their operators, not retaliatory - e.g. attacking Hamas infrastructure.

There are dozens and dozens of examples of Israel attacking ordinary Palestinians so let's take a few recent examples;

The bloodshed occurred early Wednesday with Israeli tanks poised just outside the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun. The tanks fired 10 artillery rounds into the town's center and killed 19 people, the medical sources said.

Among the dead was a 13-member family which included seven children, the sources said. The other six killed were also civilians, they said.

This mass murder was condemned by all of the world's leaders except of course the USA.

Despite her pain, A'isha spoke out: "It was 6:30 pm. We were harvesting the barely near the Sufa crossing, the sun was setting, while myself, my father and my brothers and sisters were all bending down in our field.

"My father asked us to leave our brother Mohammad in the car. We left the field, then the Zannana [unmanned drone plane] fired a missile that hit us directly," Aisha says.

"My father rushed to us and called for the ambulance, then another missile was fired. I kept dragging my body until I arrived at our house and asked help from the neighbors, then a third missile was hit. By then, I heard people saying, 'the car was went off' and I learned that my sister Samah and my brother Ahmad were killed, while my father was injured," A'isha recalls.

"There were no gunmen near us, it's our field, we come here everyday to harvest the barely. Why did they hit us? What is our fault?" A'isha wonders, while sighing bitterly at the loss of her family.

A lot of us like A'isha wonder what possible gain there is from acts such as these unless yhe intention is to provoke a response to 'justify' even harsher treatment of the Palestinians.

Israel Accused of Whitewash Over Palestinian Deaths
by Phil Reeves in Jerusalem

An internal inquiry by the Israeli army into the killing of 12 Palestinian civilians by its forces last week, including four fruit-pickers blown up by a tank shell packed with thousands of darts, has cleared the soldiers involved.

Investigations by the Israeli army into the killing or maiming of Arab civilians in the 23-month conflict have almost invariably resulted in whitewashes, but this did not diminish the condemnation with which yesterday's findings were greeted by Western sources, Israeli peace activists and Palestinian officials.

The inquiry said the "open-fire" orders that led the Israeli army to fire a 120mm air- burst shell packed with 3,000 flechettes (inch-long darts), at a Palestinian family in their camp in a fig orchard in the Gaza Strip, were "appropriate". So, too, were the orders given to the snipers who picked off four laborers in a West Bank quarry on Sunday, allegedly because they saw them cutting a fence. And so was the command issued to an Israeli death squad in a helicopter that killed two teenagers and two children aged six and 10 in a botched assassination.

The inquiry found that in the first two of these cases, both on Palestinian-controlled land inside the occupied territories invaded by the Israeli army, soldiers had acted because they identified Palestinians who were behaving "suspiciously", including being in an "unauthorized area" late at night, crawling towards an illegal Israeli settlement and infiltrating Israeli agricultural land.

An Israeli army statement did not confirm or deny using a tank flechette round. But The Independent has examined an X-ray of one victim. Darts were embedded in his chest and stomach. The deaths of the children caused by the helicopter missile strike, in the West Bank village of Tubas, were dismissed by the Israeli army as "collateral damage" that was "probably caused by a technical malfunction".

The inquiry was ordered by the Defense Minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, who complimented the Israeli army yesterday on its "thorough" work, a military statement said.

And the totals for last year

Israel beats Palestine in civilian death match 660 to 17
Israel killed 660 Palestine civilians including 141 children while losing 17 of their own to Palestinians in another grim year of conflict in the Middle East, according to an Israeli rights group. Israel is holding 345 children as prisoners, many of whom are not even aware of the charges against them. Things look better for 2007 though, with the ceasefire.

And let's not even get into the massacre of 1100 Lebanese civilians, one third of which were children, by the IDF.

You watch too much CNN, BBC, or (heaven forbid) France 2.
In Gaza the situation is indeed quite bad - but there is nothing we can do to better that. Even the currently operating crossings that are used to transport the most basic humanitarian aid are under attack by the Gazans' own government.

The Gaza strip is a prison camp with no entry or egress without Israel's permission which has also in a new cruel twist been recently denoted as a hostile area by Israel so they can create even more suffering for the wretched inhabitants.

You obviously do not like unbiased news sources like the BBC (provenly unbiased after an investigation following complaints by zionists) so I wonder where you get your ideas from. I can't imagine even the most biased program shows the sort of stuff you claim do you simply look at a blank screen whilst making it up??

 

[Hurkyl]

And let's not even get into the massacre of 1100 Lebanese civilians, one third of which were children, by the IDF.

When did that happen? The only recent event in Lebanon I recall is an armed conflict with Hezbollah.

 

[Hurkyl]

Lets begin by looking at Israel's 'restraint' around the time frame you referenced and to avoid any argument re the accuracy of the data I'll use Israeli sources.

It would be better to use figures from the actual time that Yonoz was referring to. It's hard to know what happened during the period of restraint if the figures you're quoting involve time periods outside of this period of restraint.

It seems Israel's policy of restraint was murder for the Palestinians .

Was it? It seems that you haven't provided anything to compare these numbers to, so I can't tell.

 

[Art]

When did that happen? The only recent event in Lebanon I recall is an armed conflict with Hezbollah.

You're probably confused by which massacre I meant as there have been so many committed by Israel over the years. To clear up your confusion I was referring to the massacre committed in Lebanon this year.

Massacre in Lebanon
Why is the “war on terror” killing children?
by Robert Fisk

IT will be called the massacre of Marwaheen. All the civilians killed by the Israelis had first been ordered to abandon their homes in the border village by loudspeaker; and leave they did, 20 of them in a convoy of civilian cars.

That’s when the Israeli jets arrived to bomb them, killing 20 Lebanese, at least nine of them children. The local fire brigade could not put out the fires as they all burned alive in the inferno. Another “terrorist” target had been eliminated.

Later, the Israelis produced more “terrorist” targets — petrol stations in the Bekaa Valley all the way up to the frontier city of Hermel in northern Lebanon and another series of bridges on one of the few escape routes to Damascus, this time between Chtaura and the border village of Masnaa. On day two, Israeli jets came first to the little village of Dweir near Nabatiya in southern Lebanon, where an Israeli plane dropped a bomb on the home of a Shia Muslim cleric. He was killed. So was his wife. So were eight of his children. One was decapitated. All they could find of a baby was its head and torso which a young villager brandished in fury in front of the cameras. Then the planes visited another home in Dweir and disposed of a family of seven.

 

[Hurkyl]

To clear up your confusion I was referring to the massacre committed this year.

Thank you. I had not heard of this event.