- #61
kat
- 42
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Zero-He retired early 70's and died a few years after
News Is Israel's Sacrifice of Territory for Ceasefire a Triumph for Terrorism?
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The discussion centers on Israel's recent territorial concessions to Palestinians in exchange for a ceasefire, which was subsequently violated. Participants express concern that these actions may be perceived as a victory for terrorism and question the effectiveness of past peace efforts, particularly those initiated during Clinton's presidency. The conversation highlights the ongoing cycle of violence, with some arguing that Israel is losing the war on terror and that U.S. support for Israel is waning. There is a debate over the historical context of land ownership and the legitimacy of Palestinian claims, with some asserting that the Palestinians have consistently violated agreements. The emotional responses of individuals, including extreme views on violence, are examined, alongside the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the role of external powers and the historical failures of peace initiatives. The discussion reflects deep-seated frustrations and differing perspectives on the prospects for a lasting resolution to the conflict.
Zero-He retired early 70's and died a few years after
- #62
drag
Science Advisor
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Greetings !
Jews never existed in any siginificant measure until the early
20th century uprise of arab nationalism, then their siding
with Nazi Germany and later the Muslim extremism.
are not accurate. Third, read this (not a "news" site but
a site that describes the truth about the situation, not the
"truth" of the arabs whose middle-eastern upbringing teaches them
that lies are the best way to gain, but the reality in the field):
http://www.wjc.org.il/publications/policy_dispatches/pub_dis63.html
know whether indeed its head is Jewish - which by the way
says nothing because normal people are not used to manipulate
suhc "power" in their own favor. I DO know that its claims are
often exhagerated and ussualy ignore completely the situation
because an 18 year old "peaceful demonstrant" is not equal to
a 5 year old child blown up in a bus.
so far is that you bring up random pieces of info to
justify your biased pro-arab, pro-Muslim and racist views
and then when I expose the lie or delibarate misinterpretation
or misrepresentation that you make you "forget" about it
and jump to new pieces of info with the same intent.
Zero, perhaps your extensive military experience can suggest
better ways of dealing with Palestinian terrorism ? I'd love
to hear them for once, instead of your critism of whatever
concerns Israel and admiration of all Palestinian.
Live long and prosper.
Like she answered - a lie. The hatred of the arabs towards the
Jews never existed in any siginificant measure until the early
20th century uprise of arab nationalism, then their siding
with Nazi Germany and later the Muslim extremism.
First of all 0.63 is NOT 0.55. Second, like I said these statistics
are not accurate. Third, read this (not a "news" site but
a site that describes the truth about the situation, not the
"truth" of the arabs whose middle-eastern upbringing teaches them
that lies are the best way to gain, but the reality in the field):
http://www.wjc.org.il/publications/policy_dispatches/pub_dis63.html
I don't know whom else it crtisizes and how much, I don't
know whether indeed its head is Jewish - which by the way
says nothing because normal people are not used to manipulate
suhc "power" in their own favor. I DO know that its claims are
often exhagerated and ussualy ignore completely the situation
because an 18 year old "peaceful demonstrant" is not equal to
a 5 year old child blown up in a bus.
That's funny, I see no such pattern. The only pattern I see
so far is that you bring up random pieces of info to
justify your biased pro-arab, pro-Muslim and racist views
and then when I expose the lie or delibarate misinterpretation
or misrepresentation that you make you "forget" about it
and jump to new pieces of info with the same intent.
Zero, perhaps your extensive military experience can suggest
better ways of dealing with Palestinian terrorism ? I'd love
to hear them for once, instead of your critism of whatever
concerns Israel and admiration of all Palestinian.
Live long and prosper.
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- #63
russ_watters
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Certainly. They are as innocent as the Israeli children killed by the suicide bombers who's leaders are then killed in the missile attacks. If the suicide bombers go away, the need to attack their leaders and the associated collateral damage does too.
Drag, we already had that discussion (I'm pretty sure you participated).
We discussed whether its better (for everyone) to fire some missiles from a helicopter or send in a platoon of infantry (or even two cops) after a terrorist leader. Though he didn't exactly concede (he never does) his reaction seemed to indicate that he agreed that it IS better for everyone if gunships instead of infantry are used.
Not to mention, drag, the uncomfortable little fact that while Israel may kill some civilians BY ACCIDENT, virtually every single civilian killed by the Arabs in this conflict was intentional.
Well damn, drag, don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel! (I agree)
Well put, kat. To expand, Israel was founded not ON racism, but as an escape from racism by a specific race. But the escape from racism (among other things) is not limited to Jews. Any Arab can move to Israel to escape the many problems in Arab countries.
I'm thinking maybe this is part of the reason we feel such a kinship with Israel - the US was founded largely by people who were escaping some sort of persecution in Europe. And as a result, we built a Bill of Rights into our Constitution.
Jcsd, that article is about education rights. It has nothing to do with the law on serving in the military and non-enforcement with regard to the settlers. Please try to make your lies a little less transparent.
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- #64
Zero
Two wrongs make a right, I suppose...so long as it is Israel who commits the second wrong.
- #65
Zero
To be more specific, when a suicide bomber kills 7, it is horrible(we all agree on that). When Israeli troops retaliate by killing 6 suspected terrorists, and their wives and children, we also blame taht on the terrorists, huh? Just once, I would like to see someone decry the horrible fact that Israeli troops are slaughering children. It wouldn't make you anti-semitic, you know?
Actually, that seems to be teh entire argument, from my perspective. "The Arabs did it first, so it doesn't matter what Israel does in return." Oh, and let's never distinguish between Palestinians terrorists and civilians. The Israeli troops sure don't.
Actually, that seems to be teh entire argument, from my perspective. "The Arabs did it first, so it doesn't matter what Israel does in return." Oh, and let's never distinguish between Palestinians terrorists and civilians. The Israeli troops sure don't.
- #66
kat
- 42
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Let me be as specific as I can be without being rude as to what I feel when I read your comments, with the understanding that I am being blunt for clarity and not for condemnation as we all come from our own views of life and our own sympathies and most often we all have some bit of right and some bit of wrong within them no matter what they are or where they arise from.
What I hear you say is Israeli slaughter needlessly, that they purposely go out and hunt down children and women and slaughter them wilingly and needlessly because they are such hateful vile people, this is what I read from you. Now whether that is your intention I do not know, but this IS what I read.
It seems to me that you want to lay all of the blame on the Israeli's, you believe they have no right to be there and none of this would exist if they did not AND so because of this they should either pack up and leave, open the doors to all the arabs waiting to enter or if not this then because it is their own guilt that has brought them to the situation they should simply walk around with big fat targets on their t-shirts and not DO anything in defense. If this were not the case then SURELY when I have outlined the problems with your statements on how they should handle this, and I continuesly suggest to you that there REALLY is no better way, and IN FACT there are less civilians killed this way then when using OTHER OPTIONS you tacticly ignore that fact AND never, ever offer any solutions, NEVER.
SO, to me when someone continues to blame yet never offers better VIABLE solutions then they quite simply are part of the problem.
ALso, let me explain to you why I don't spend my time and energy focusing on blaming the Israeli's with the same fervor as you (although REALLY at this point I think blaming is useless and we really MUST all shift gears and start pushing for VIABLE solutions) If I must blame SOMEONE when surely there is SO MUCH blame to spread around it should be ridiculously silly if it wasn't so HORRIBLE HORRIBLY TRAGIC. BUT as for SPECIFIC blame, I would surely be MANY in line before Israel.
The blame for Christians:
For two thousand years the Christian world acted COLLECTIVELY to deprive the Jews in the diaspora of a means of livelihood. They expelled them out of country after country, robbing their possessions and their homes. Finally they began to exterminate the Jews of Europe, first by blood libels, then by pogroms and finally by gas chamber genocide. The remnant of the Jews demanded to return to their homeland for security. That is a perfectly understandable reaction to that history. The Christian world is at fault for that much. Let the Christian world pay back to the Jew all they stole over the centuries with reasonable interest. Let the Christian world decide what to do with the wave of Arab refugees that triggered when the wave of Jewish refugees that they created hit the shores of Palestine. The Christian world is at fault for starting the refugee wave. Let them solve the problem. Don’t ask the Jews to solve the problem that was fomented by Christian anti-Semitism. The Jews are the victim of those Christian actions just as much as the Palestinians are.
The Blame for the Arabs:
When the whole Arab world was being divided into 20+ nation-states, it rejected the right of the Jews to self determination in a nation-state of their own on less than ½ of 1% of the land. When it rejected that minimal partition and opted instead for war because "All of Arab land must be only and always Arab" they were at fault. When they decided on war instead of a peaceful political compromise, they took on the full responsibility for the outcome. The refugee problem is theirs to solve. It is not the Jews’s problem to solve. The Jews did not ask for that war. The Arab world did.
When the Arab world then united and for 50 years insisted that the refugees must remain in those camps, and for 50 years said no peace, no negotiation, no Jewish State … then they became not only at fault, but criminally at fault, and deserve not only to pay compensatory damages their policies caused Israel and the Palestinians, but punitive damages as well.
The Blame for the Muslims:
For centuries the Islamic world treated Jews in dozens of places like second class serfs. They collected special taxes from them and prevented many from earning a livelihood in many professions. They prevented them from owning land in many places. By restricting the rights of Jews to compete on an equal basis, the Islamic world helped set the stage for the Jews to seek salvation in a state of their own. The Islamic world is at fault for both the damage they directly did to the Jews, and the indirect damage they caused by forcing the Jews to seek a state of their own if they were to have any chance at getting equal justice in the Muslim world.
Zero, when I think in terms of blame, I see a lot that needs to be made up to the Jews before the Jews can be asked by any Christian or Muslim to take responsibility for what happened to the Palestinians. When I think of Jews deciding what they should do on the basis of fault, I think the Jews had every reason in the world to expel the Palestinians who, to this day, call Husseini a hero, and supported bombs landing on Tel Aviv, and support Hamas that calls for killing EVERY Jew hiding behind EVERY rock.
Finally, the blame for the Palestinians:
When starting in 1888 a trickle of Jews began to leave Europe they were unarmed refugees. They moved to Palestine and paid for land to create small Jewish villages where they might live unmolested. These villages were routinely and repeatedly attacked from nearby Arab villages and Jews were murdered. Not only the attackers themselves are at fault. At fault are also those Arabs who spread the rumors the fomented these attacks and the Arabs who sheltered the attackers in their villages so they could be free to attack again. Before Israelis are asked to collectively make ANY recompense to Palestinians, the Palestinians must collectively take responsibility for those attacks and pay recompense for the damage they did.
Haj Amin El Husseini fomented one riot against the Jews after another, usually by spreading anti-Jewish libel in the Muslim/Arab communities. He fomented the anti-Jewish riots in Palestine in 1929 (and was instrumental in fomenting the anti-Jewish farhad in Iraq in 1941). The Palestinians cheered him on and collectively joined in those riots, which among other things resulted in the expulsion of the ENTIRE Jewish community from Hebron. If Palestinians were subsequently expelled from their homes, they should consider themselves paying no more than the natural consequences of their actions against the Jews, in those riots.
And don't give me that crap that Husseini would have been a good boy and everything wonderful if the Jews had not come. Sure, if the Jews remained in Europe and just died there, he would not have had to kill them in Palestine. That reasoning makes me want to puke.
When Hitler decided to get rich and get rid of the Jews at the same time by allowing the Jews of Europe to be ransomed one by one, the Jews (especially the Zionists) started collecting funds to try to save as many lives as they could. Husseini traveled to Berlin to convince Hitler to stop letting any Jews out of Europe and to exterminate them instead. He then personally aided in the extermination of the Jews of Yugoslavia. All those friggin racists who supported Husseini then and who do so today are at fault. They bear collective responsibility for the result; that hundreds of thousands of Jews are dead, and many of the remainder cannot bear to even think of living near Christians or Muslims. So if the Palestinian Christians and Moslems had to be expelled to alleviate a situation they helped foment … well maybe that is the balance of justice.
When I think in terms of bringing PEACE to a horrible situation I DON"T THINK OF ANY OF THIS BLAME, I think of ridding the Palestinian people of the FANATICS and those ARABS who are in power that entrap them, that also kill them and make them suffer evern greater then the Israeli's, I think of how UNTIL they rise up against these groups THEY WILL KNOW NO PEACE, the Israeli's ARE not really the BIGGEST problem the Palestinians face..they are however a very good diversion. Some day if there is to be ANY peace in the middle east the fanatics MUST be dealt with by the Palestinians themselves and UNTIL the entire focus is on this there will be NO peace that will NOT BE undermined.
- #67
russ_watters
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Since I realize the previous post will probably be deleted, I' do this in a separate post.
Zero, I can't understand why you don't see the obvious difference between a child killed ON PURPOSE and one killed BY ACCIDENT. And that's at best - typically terrorist PURPOSELY hide among civilians so according to the Geneva Convention, civilian deaths are the fault of the terrorists. The use of human shields is a Geneva Convention violation.
Further, you have conveniently forgotten our discussion on the best way to go after suspected terrorists. You seemed to acknowlege that sending a squad of infantry into a town to arrest a terrorist would end up causing more deaths on both sides than a gunship attack.
And you emphasized the word "suspected". "Suspected terrorists." The implication being that they need to be arrested and tried before they can be executed. Zero, terrorists and their sympathizers LOVE to try to get the best of both worlds - both criminal and military rights. In reality, terrorists get NEITHER the rights of criminals nor the rights of legal enemy combatants.
Zero, I can't understand why you don't see the obvious difference between a child killed ON PURPOSE and one killed BY ACCIDENT. And that's at best - typically terrorist PURPOSELY hide among civilians so according to the Geneva Convention, civilian deaths are the fault of the terrorists. The use of human shields is a Geneva Convention violation.
Further, you have conveniently forgotten our discussion on the best way to go after suspected terrorists. You seemed to acknowlege that sending a squad of infantry into a town to arrest a terrorist would end up causing more deaths on both sides than a gunship attack.
And you emphasized the word "suspected". "Suspected terrorists." The implication being that they need to be arrested and tried before they can be executed. Zero, terrorists and their sympathizers LOVE to try to get the best of both worlds - both criminal and military rights. In reality, terrorists get NEITHER the rights of criminals nor the rights of legal enemy combatants.
- #68
Zero
Kat, three quick things that I have told you repeatedly, which you continuously ignore.
1) I never said that Israeli troops target women and children. I said that they don't seem to show any caution to avoid killing them. You know, simple things like blowing up a car containing a suspected terrorist, and his wife and child. You make that leap for some reason...and I usually guess that the reason is so that you can claim that I am anti-semitic.
2)Do you think that I cannot have the opinion that the situation is horrible unless I have a perfect solution to offer? In that case, no one can say they are anti-ANYTHING without having a solution...and if we all had solutions there would be no problems in the world, would there?
3) I don't understand your attitude that every other group must be perfect before Israel accepts the first bit of blame. The terrorist attacks are wrong, so the retaliation is ALWAYS 100% RIGHT, so long as it isn't as bad as a terrorist attack?
And, Russ, about your comment about suspected terrorists and their rights? Shouldn't someone have to prove that a person is a terrorist before they kill them and their wife and child?
1) I never said that Israeli troops target women and children. I said that they don't seem to show any caution to avoid killing them. You know, simple things like blowing up a car containing a suspected terrorist, and his wife and child. You make that leap for some reason...and I usually guess that the reason is so that you can claim that I am anti-semitic.
2)Do you think that I cannot have the opinion that the situation is horrible unless I have a perfect solution to offer? In that case, no one can say they are anti-ANYTHING without having a solution...and if we all had solutions there would be no problems in the world, would there?
3) I don't understand your attitude that every other group must be perfect before Israel accepts the first bit of blame. The terrorist attacks are wrong, so the retaliation is ALWAYS 100% RIGHT, so long as it isn't as bad as a terrorist attack?
And, Russ, about your comment about suspected terrorists and their rights? Shouldn't someone have to prove that a person is a terrorist before they kill them and their wife and child?
- #69
russ_watters
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*edit*
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- #70
kat
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I don't quite understand what was wrong with Rw's post, I read it quickly just after it was posted and although I don't remember exactly what it said..it didn't seem problematic...
What was the issue?
anyhow, now that I have some breathing time I'll take a sec and respond to your 3 points.
Also, the reason is not to claim that you're anti-semitic, the reason is because you fail to acknowledge the right to self protection and offer a viable alternative. I claim your anti-semitic because of your statements supporting genocide and the absolute anhilation of Israel.
As for killing the wife and child...YES, it's horrible. YES, it should be avoided, YES, it should be condemned
BUT when the militant
PROCLAIMS war
plans, creates, supports, recruits, finances, attacks and
TARGETS NOT military targets
but
PURPOSELY targets innocent civilians
and
AGAINST ALL GENEVA CONVENTIONS
PURPOSELY and continiously surrounds theirselves with civilians
for the SOLE purpose of dragging the Israeli military into a situation where this sort of issue will arise..
is where a huge amount of guilt MUST LIE...
because if it DOES NOT ...
VOCALLY lie there, with the militant who creates this as a strategy
then you are guilty of complicity
because you encourage the militant to use that tactic
because IT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.
Do you understand this? or is it completely foreign to you?
What was the issue?
anyhow, now that I have some breathing time I'll take a sec and respond to your 3 points.
I don't think I ignore anything you've "told" repeatedly, I think that a)you are a bit blind to your own prejudices b)I think you're suffering from a severe case of moral equivelancy. C) You have a nasty habit of ignoring the facts when they don't jive with your world view.
I think it was perhaps the word "slaughter" and your continued voluntary and pointed ignorance of the situation in the disputed territories. I've pointed out on several occasions that a) Israel has a right to protect itself b) targeting with "missiles" is far less bloody then other methods available and if you do not agree then give a viable alternative.
Also, the reason is not to claim that you're anti-semitic, the reason is because you fail to acknowledge the right to self protection and offer a viable alternative. I claim your anti-semitic because of your statements supporting genocide and the absolute anhilation of Israel.
I think you can have an opinion that the situation is horrible, certainly I have made the same statement MYSELF, repeatedly. HOWEVER, you don't just have an opinion that the situation is horrible, you have an opinion that the situation is horrible AND that the guilt lies on the head of the Israeli's. You then make statements declaring that perhaps it's because of the jews early biblical "sins" and advocate the complete anhilation of the jewish state by black topping it over. You lay the blame upon the victim, and you continue to ignore that they are indeed also victims who have the right to self protection.
I don't understand how you twist my statements. Maybe you need to re-read my post, where have I called for perfection? Where do I claim 100% anything? I simply point out your errors and seldom have time to actually have an intelligent discourse on real viable solutions because our conversations our continuesly weighted down with inflamnatory statements that neglect the on ground realities. Your unrealistic suggestion of joint palestinian/israeli policing is a perfect example of this.
Zero, you don't have to prove someone is guilty when they publicly admit, no wait,..proudly, proclaim guilt and willingly take responsibility for the purposeful murder of civilians.
As for killing the wife and child...YES, it's horrible. YES, it should be avoided, YES, it should be condemned
BUT when the militant
PROCLAIMS war
plans, creates, supports, recruits, finances, attacks and
TARGETS NOT military targets
but
PURPOSELY targets innocent civilians
and
AGAINST ALL GENEVA CONVENTIONS
PURPOSELY and continiously surrounds theirselves with civilians
for the SOLE purpose of dragging the Israeli military into a situation where this sort of issue will arise..
is where a huge amount of guilt MUST LIE...
because if it DOES NOT ...
VOCALLY lie there, with the militant who creates this as a strategy
then you are guilty of complicity
because you encourage the militant to use that tactic
because IT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.
Do you understand this? or is it completely foreign to you?
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- #71
Zero
Hatred of innocents is so unattractive, Kat...but indifference because of racism is worse.
BTW...calling me anti-semitic is idiocy...being anti-Israel isn't anti-Jewish. Too bad you can't see a distiction, but that is par for the course with you. Palestinians, I'm sure, feel they are exercising their right to protect themselves too.
BTW...calling me anti-semitic is idiocy...being anti-Israel isn't anti-Jewish. Too bad you can't see a distiction, but that is par for the course with you. Palestinians, I'm sure, feel they are exercising their right to protect themselves too.
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- #72
halfdyke
zero told me something very insightful once. when someone bombs a cafe in the west bank, and the israelis respond by taking out half a village, that only gives the future bombers that are waiting in the wings more fuel for their "cause". so the question then becomes, how do we resolve the issue without giving the palestinians more and more reasons to hate and want to kill the israelis? each time an israeli assassination squad takes out another village, while the palestinians in that village can only fight back with rocks and other things like that, it makes them want to say "hey, maybe i should go to one of those suicide bomber training camps." and kat talks about the israelis' right to defend themselves. what about the palenstinians' right to defend themselves when israel retaliates? i don't know about kat, but my mom always taught me that violence in retaliation for violence solves nothing...so why do you support israel's violence in retaliation for violence? it solves nothing.
- #73
Shadow
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NO. No, I believe the real question is this: Who will be the stronger country and decide not to take the next step? To instead rely on defense, but not attack. Who will be the peaceful country, the one who offers not only a ceasefire, but will make an offer towards peace? An offer such as giving trust to the other country. Not complete trust, but a little, and a trust that will grow and could very well become a friendship. These two countries need to see their faults. They need to learn that two wrongs DO NOT make a right and that their war is killing their own people. And the war is killing their people over what? Some land and differences in beliefs. So they have to learn one more thing. Accept people for who they are.
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- #74
drag
Science Advisor
- 1,097
- 1
Greetings !
halfadyke's and shadow's messages reveal a clear lack of knowledge
and understanding of the real situation. Zero's editing of
my previous post reveals, again
, his clear bias on
this issue since no one would edit my message otherwise
since it simply expressed the incredible misunderstanding and
lack of info on the issue that the person to whose message
I responded there showed.
Live long and prosper.
halfadyke's and shadow's messages reveal a clear lack of knowledge
and understanding of the real situation. Zero's editing of
my previous post reveals, again
, his clear bias onthis issue since no one would edit my message otherwise
since it simply expressed the incredible misunderstanding and
lack of info on the issue that the person to whose message
I responded there showed.
Live long and prosper.
- #75
Zero
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
halfadyke's and shadow's messages reveal a clear lack of knowledge
and understanding of the real situation. Zero's editing of
my previous post reveals, again
this issue since no one would edit my message otherwise
since it simply expressed the incredible misunderstanding and
lack of info on the issue that the person to whose message
I responded there showed.
Live long and prosper.
Funny how you claim that only your views are correct, and that you should respond by posting content-free insults, and then complain when they are deleted.
Stay on topic.
- #76
Shadow
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How so? Lately some of your posts seem to be less intelectual and more critical. You say things about Halfdyke and I yet I was responding to Halfdykes post and he was responding to Kat and Zero. You have contributed little to this topic in your past few posts and even before that, you said Kat was wrong when she was expressing her opinion/ view on the matter.
And if I have "A clear Lack Of Knowledge" how would you propose to resolve the issue? How would you have them make peace?
- #77
russ_watters
Mentor
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Hmm, yeah, it was a while ago, but if I remember correctly, it was just an explanation of how hiding amongst civilians is a Geneva Convention violation and therefore the majority of Arab civilian deaths are crimes comitted by Arabs.
Etu Brutei. Zero, you are making this entire forum pointless.
- #78
Zero
Russ, if you don't like it, leave. Period.
Shadow, ignore Drag's personal comments, and stay on topic.
Shadow, ignore Drag's personal comments, and stay on topic.
- #79
schwarzchildradius
For as far as the eye can see, this joker of a president has provided us with war and poverty. The MOST he can do is hand over all the power of this nation to the Pentagon and claim credit for its victories, while passing the blame to others for failures -- no wonder everybody he works with gets fired.
The terrorist acts against Israel slow down, while our boys get fragged for what reason? Why is our joker president so chummy with the Brits? Is he a redcoat in disguise? Let's do away with the old empires and revive the American Republic. The traitors in our midst have sensitive positions in the government.
The terrorist acts against Israel slow down, while our boys get fragged for what reason? Why is our joker president so chummy with the Brits? Is he a redcoat in disguise? Let's do away with the old empires and revive the American Republic. The traitors in our midst have sensitive positions in the government.
- #80
Zero
And, on that note...we're through.