Physics Is it difficult to find jobs for physics graduates in today's job market?

[NSX]

Well, I've just received my Admission into Physics, though I'm hesitant to accept this offer now that I realize Engineers are much more employable than Physicists.

What do you guys think of Engineering Science?
[link here: http://www.engsci.utoronto.ca/]

Right now, I am [going into] a second year Mechanical Engineering student @ Ryerson University. The amount of students being hired after graduation is fairly high [see http://www.ryerson.ca/admissions/gradtable.html ].

I really love Physics [but Physics sucks as compared to Engineering employability], and so I was considering going into Physics for the fall term, while applying for a transfer into Engineering Science for the winter term. Then, I would specialize in http://www.engsci.utoronto.ca/academic9.html during my 3^rd & 4^th years.

What do you guys think?

Actually, my main question is: Are Engineering Science graduates as employable as graduates of Mechanical Engineering?

And what do you guys think of my plan?

 

[JohnDubYa]

Not sure, as I am not familiar with engineering science.

Your concern about employability leads me to believe you would be best off with the engineering degree.

Why not get a degree in mechanical engineering and a Masters in physics? Or you could just minor in physics (although the two departments are usually located in two different schools, which means you would have to take a few redundant courses).

 

[NSX]

Why not get a degree in mechanical engineering and a Masters in physics?

Can I do that?
My school does not offer graduate programs for Physics for one thing.

Another thing about that is starting in the fall 2004 term, I will no longer be taking any pure physics courses. I wil take a bunch of statics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and fluid mechanics, but no pure physics like: Electricity and Magnetism, Geometrical Optics, Quantum Physics, Classical Mechanics, Special Relativity, Astrophysics, etc...

How do Graduate programs operate?
Do I have to fulfill a certain type of requirement for courses before I am deemed acceptable for entrance?

 

[alexepascual]

NSX,

With respect to "engineering science", I never heard of that. I is possible that most employers have not heard of it either. You would have to convince the employer that your studies prepared you for the job. There may be positions that require an engineering degree but not specifically mechanical, electrical or chemical. You might do well with that degree when applying for those positions.
If you look at the Sunday newspaper, you'll find some job openings in the engineering section for "electrical engineer", "mechanical engineer", etc. But you won't see any for "engineering scientist".
I think in today's industries there is a tendency to look for people highly specialized. "engineering science" sounds like too general.

With respect to the possibility of getting your masters in physics after a bachelor's in mechanical engineering, you should contact a school that offers the master's in physics and ask them what you would need if you had a bachelor's in mechanical engineering. This information may be a little hard to get though. They may tell you that you need to give them your transcript for them to analyze it, and you would have to explain that you don't have the degree yet. You would have to find someone willing to work with you on this issue. I am sure you would have to take some extra subjects.
I am registered for next fall in the master's degree program in physics, and we'll be using the same books I used for my bachellor's program. Some of the classes are given concurrently for graduate and undergraduate students. That is, the material is the same, but when the test comes you have to do more problems if you are in your master's program. Now, this may not be the same at other universities.
Now, at most universities in the US you get to take some electives. If that is the same in Canada, you might be able to take some of the physics courses while studying for your mechanical engineering degree. You should ask your counselor.

 

[H-bar None]

I was reading this thread and started to worry my self to death so I did a little research.

The Occupational Handbook does predict high competion for the acedemic positions in physics because of the low turnover rate.

The private sector is still growing but the rate has slowed because of a recession. The fields that are hot is biophysics, non linear optics and condensed matter(solid state?). I feel sorry for astonomy/astrophysics and space science there was a severe budget cut announced last week sometime.

The O.H. and some other sources suggested that many "career" physicists move from one field to another. Some migrate to engineering or business.

Some states allow bachelor degree holders to take Engineering exams. I can tell you from experience that a lot of the undergrad coursework for E.E. and Physics majors are closely related.

We have every reason to be optimistc despite budget cuts, outsourcing, and underemployment.

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "The Occupational Handbook does predict high competion for the acedemic positions in physics because of the low turnover rate."

That's putting it mildly. For most graduates, I would not recommend an academic position for any number of reasons. The money simply isn't worth the aggravation. (And the students are not the problem, if you get my drift.)

Be aware that no school is going to touch a graduate unless he has completed an extra two years of postdoctoral research. Who wants to spend nearly ten years of post-graduate preparation to prepare for a $40,000/year job fending off the political attacks of Lexus-driving muckity mucks? I used to, but not anymore.

 

[NSX]

Thanks for the posts guys.

I'm going to stick with Mech. Eng. and complete the remainder of my Bachelor's.

Then [hopefully], as you guys say; I'll go for the Masters in Physics.

I'm thinking of visiting the UofToronto and UoWaterloo to ask if such a switch is possible in the summer sometime.

But for now ... i have to look for a summer job.

:P

 

[JohnDubYa]

As soon as you enter grad school begin taking as many of the solid undergraduate physics courses as your academic committee will allow. You will probably want to take E&M, QM, and Mechanics as soon as possible.

Be careful about taking graduate courses in physics as an undergraduate. Some schools will require you to take qualifier exams in those subjects right away if you have completed the graduate level courses. This can bite really, really bad.

 

[KingNothing]

I have a very important, and possibly very stupid question:

What exactly does a physicist do?

Besides more school than almost anyone else, say John is to get a doctorate in physics.

What would he do after that?...what jobs? what Kind of money would he make?

 

[bozo the clown]

Join the circus you could put your physics to good use swinging from a trapeze and calculating somersaults, work out where freddy's going to land when I fire him from our new cannon good pay too !

Failing that and you are strugling to find work, you could always pump gas like many graduates do or go back to being a professional student.

 

[ZapperZ]

I have a very important, and possibly very stupid question:

What exactly does a physicist do?

Besides more school than almost anyone else, say John is to get a doctorate in physics.

What would he do after that?...what jobs? what Kind of money would he make?

Y'know, I suppose it is way to much to expect everyone to read every single postings within a string. But after having posted two lengthy (and time-consuming) essays on here regarding this, and also a couple of links regarding the job statistics of physics graduates, it is very frustrating to still get a question such as this.

Zz.

 

[edtman]

Thanks for the posts guys.

I'm going to stick with Mech. Eng. and complete the remainder of my Bachelor's.

Then [hopefully], as you guys say; I'll go for the Masters in Physics.

I'm thinking of visiting the UofToronto and UoWaterloo to ask if such a switch is possible in the summer sometime.

But for now ... i have to look for a summer job.

:P

Wait! Before you make any life changing decisions look at engineering science again. I'm an Engineering Physics major at CU-Boulder and if Eng Science is anything like CU's Eng physics program you'd be better off taking that for your undergrad. and picking your electives to tailor towards a Mechanical/electrical engineering or even physics masters. Talk to an advisor and see if this is possible. A masters in a field of engineering will probably be more valuable than a physics masters if $$$ is your concern.

 

[cronxeh]

Hey everyone :)

This subject is very important to me as well.

Currently I'm in a Dual degree program (BS in Physics / BS Biological & Chemical Engineering). The BS in Physics curriculum is highly interdisciplinary and some courses are from EE and some are from chemistry (quantum chem, statistical mech).

If you are trully passionate about Physics, like me, then you should go for a dual degree (you get two diplomas) or a double major (one diploma (less credits) - you get a BS in Physics and some engineering for example). Now with a dual degree you can apply to a grad school in either field. As I'm uncertain which field to apply - either physics or chem engineering, and the job outlook for a bs in physics isn't optimistic to say the least.. I am definitely contemplating the options.

The dual degree may be the best option for some of you. And perhaps an Electrical Engineering / Physics mix or any other engineering you may find interesting.

As for what do Physicists do.. back in 80's there was a hype over cold fusion. after billions of dollars were pumped into the research, we are still nowhere close to that. I guess somewhere down the link people got disappointed with Physicists. And nowadays the only imagine that comes to mind is A. Einstein, NASA, the nuclear bombs and Hiroshima / Nagasaki obviously.

But the Physicists are to thank for modern electronics (all of them), the transistor, the satellites, all the nifty GPS gadgets, the man on the moon.. the atom force microscope.. the many other great achievements.

Id like to encourage you to study Physics, it deserves it for it's own beauty. With better understand in this subject, you gain better understand of the everyday life processes. A new Physics revolution is coming soon.. won't you like to be in grad school by the time it hits us? I sure would.

 

[edtman]

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say that a degree in mechanical engineering will guarantee you a job. If you look at the DoL's occupational handbook the amount of new jobs is growing at a slower rate than that of new grads. It makes sense-look at what types of jobs have been moving overseas...manufacturing. Tech research isn't going anywhere and a degree in physics should help you secure a job in that industry.
Alex, I really feel for your situation and I'm sure you're aware of businesses leaving California in droves. I can think of two major corporations that have left Cali to relocate to Colorado recently, Sun Micro and Intel, and that's just 2 of the many that have moved to more business friendly states from California. I don't think California's current job situation accurately reflects that of the country.

 

[NSX]

Well, in Canada they treat any Engineering program as a professional program, so there's no chance for double majors [in conjunction with an Eng. Program]

 

[cronxeh]

why not?

its plain dumb if you can't major in double degrees. probably created by liberal arts majors..

 

[alexepascual]

Thanks guys for all your input.
NSX:
I was recently looking at the catalog of California-State Fulleron, where I plan to get my masters in Physics. I found they offer a degree in "Engineering Science", but I haven't inquired yet as to what that degree is.
( I had mentioned in another post that I had never heard about engineering science).
Edtman:
I was not aware that the situation in California was that much worse than the rest of the country. But I guess I am stuck here, unless I leave my wife by herself and go somewhere else.
With respect to research jobs not leaving the country, that may be true for federally funded research. But for research by industry, I think some of it is moving to China. I also heard that India has a very good school of engineering that compares to MIT.
As far as physics guaranteing a job better than engineering, I have serious doubts about that. but my situation is that I like physics better than engineering. I figure that having gotten a bachellor's degree in physics, it'll be easier to continue in physics. On the other hand, I guess getting a masters can only improve my chances of employment, although in two or three years I'll be older, which won't help at my age.

 

[MJH]

Thanks

This thread has been extremely valuable to me. I have decided at a later stage than most to return to school and pursue a physics degree. The info presented here reinforced my confidence in my decision. Thanks, posters!

 

[alexepascual]

MJH,
Are you going to get your master's degree or your bachellors? In what country do you live?
I am glad this thread helped you.

 

[MJH]

If everything goes according to plan I will pursue a PhD. I am in the US.

 

[ZapperZ]

Here's more useful advise, especially if one intends to pursue an academic career:

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-7/p56.html

Zz.

 

[alexepascual]

Zapper,
Thanks for the link. I read the article and I think it is great.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Ask your wife if she wants you to pursue money or your dreams. If the former, be prepared to listen to her whine about your career choice for the rest of your life.

 

[tyroman]

As a late-comer to this thread, my input may go un-noticed...

But for what it's worth, here goes;

This is not only for alex but also for those others who have replied in this thread and are in the midst of making degree/career decisions

i have inserted unattributed quotes from other posters which were particularly resonant with me.

By way of background, when i went back to college after millitary service (GI Bill) i had previous college course work in both science and business (no degree)

i evaluated my transcript in relation to various degree programs and determined that with about the same number of semester hours, i could either;

a.)complete a BS in Physics + an MBA or
b.)complete a BS in Engineering (Mech, Civil, Chem, Elec, etc.)

without consideration of employability, i selected the BS/MBA option

"Actually, my main question is: Are Engineering Science graduates as employable as graduates of Mechanical Engineering?"

i have always LOVED Physics and part of my decision reflected my generalist nature and the realization that a specific engineering degree or an MS (or higher) in Physics would require focusing in on narrower fields of knowledge

"But my main motivation has always been pure knowledge of the most fundamental processes in nature"

i also didn't want to "waste" two semesters of A's and B's in business...

So i entered the job market with a strange combination; BS-Physics and MBA-Economics (You may have heard of the Physicist who earned the Nobel in Economics for his application of Thermodynamics theory to the world economy - not me LOL)

The up-shot is that i wound up as a consulting "engineer" in the energy industry who (when times got tough) was among the first to get laid-off because i wasn't a "degreed engineer" and many potential clients held out for this credential in tight markets.

"Be careful of the teaching field unless you plan on getting a credential. Schools are now much tougher on handing out emergency credentials, and without a teaching credential you have little chance of obtaining a permanent teaching job. (Emergency credentials are also relegated to the lowest end of the pay scale.)"

Now, I'm not replying here to get sympathy... just to share my experience for whatever benefit it may be to others...

My mistake (once in the consulting business) was that i failed to enhance my marketability, which i could have done by becoming a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) by documenting my practice under supervision of a PE (EIT) and taking the state exam for registration.

"Some states allow bachelor degree holders to take Engineering exams. I can tell you from experience that a lot of the undergrad coursework for E.E. and Physics majors are closely related."

Sooooo... be forewarned that the practice of Engineering without the degree can become problematic.


Finally, a comment about the following reply:

"As for what do Physicists do.. back in 80's there was a hype over cold fusion. after billions of dollars were pumped into the research, we are still nowhere close to that."

Actually, the billions were not spent on "cold fusion" research, but on the more realistic plasma fusion programs (Tokamaks, laser containment, etc) and until the 90's when our then-President took the US out of the program through budget cuts, our research was cutting-edge.

 

[cronxeh]

actually i was referring to the hype that was caused by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann in March 1989. sure fusion/plasma still has high hopes today (princeton's PPPL lab, some military/weapons-based research at lanl(?)) - but the billions were poured to the 'hot' fusion. sorry for the mix up


Edit: regarding the major. my own physics advisor told me that i probably won't find a job after i graduate, unless i go for a ph.d or masters to work in government sector.. but even with a bs degree in engineering, id be able to get a decent job (~50K +). its really a sad picture.. but then again you don't get into physics for profit these days

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "...and until the 90's when our then-President took the US out of the program through budget cuts, our research was cutting-edge."

Congress appropriates the money, not the President.

RE: "Edit: regarding the major. my own physics advisor told me that i probably won't find a job after i graduate,"

Not based solely on physics. But if you have learned some computer work, writing skills, marketing skills, and so on, on the side, you should be able to find a good job. Those are the skills that get you the qualifications. The physics gets you chosen ahead of the rest of the final cut.

 

[GTdan]

Well I am posting my question here so I don't end up creating a duplicate thread. I was thinking about getting a BS in physics and taking a bunch of classes specializing in a wide range that apply to electronics, optics, etc. I hope to make at least close to $50,000 a year entry level. Will I be able to find a job easy (or at all) after graduating with this in my resume? Is this an ok salary to expect? I am not money hungry but I don't want to use 4 years of college to get paid some small amount of money.

 

[JohnDubYa]

I think your expectations are reasonable. Keep an eye on the computer field as well, especially networking. If you can get A+ certification, that will really help.

 

[GTdan]

So I shouldn't have a problem finding a job?

 

[JohnDubYa]

I wouldn't think so as long as you have skills besides physics, such as electronics, networking, writing, and so on.