Is it possible that the Strong Force and gravity are the same thing?

  • Thread starter PeterLouis
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  • #26
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Some of the Supersymmetry theories involve a unification of at least the three forces of the standard model at TeV energies and some include Supergravity models. It is thought by some that the 4 forces are unified at some high energy level such as those present shortly after the Big Bang.
 
  • #27
jtbell
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When did science become so antagonistic to questions "outside the box"?
Thinking "outside the box" is an important part of scientific progress. So important, in fact, that we at PF prefer to leave it to professionals who know where the walls of the box are, and what is inside the box. They already have their venues for this, and so we do not allow that sort of speculation here. If you haven't seen our rules already, click the "Rules" link at the top of any page here and note the Scientific Discussion Guidelines.

To get some idea of where the walls of the box are, etc., I would suggest learning something about our current theories of gravity (general relativity) and the strong force (quantum chromodynamics, QCD), and see for yourself how different they are.
 
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  • #28
Pengwuino
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Ryan M B: you are telling me to "just believe" people who know more then me, without offering details.

Aside from differences based on distance, in this whole discussion, only two facts have been stated explaining why these two forces couldn't be the same:
1) Gravity and the Strong force have different charges
2) S.F. doesn't follow inverse square law WHILE G. follows it.

This is not enough proof to overcome the presumption of similarity based on observation.
Remember, the amount of literature and research on the two subjects could probably fill buildings large enough to house entire fleets of aircraft. It's impossible to convey all that information to someone who is not versed in science or in the field. The two points you mentioned are extraordinarily condensed and possibly vague versions of how we know the two phenomena are not the same. Simply asking for more details is like asking to open Pandora's box. It is extraordinarily likely that "the details" are entirely beyond your mathematical comprehension.

If you really want the details, you have to tell us what your mathematical abilities are. One can't prove how something simple such as compound interest works to someone that doesn't know algebra (or properly, differential equations). QCD (the theory behind the strong force) and GR's differences can't be proven to someone without vast amounts of physical and mathematical knowledge. At some point you have to just say to them "this is how it is and you just have to deal with it unless you want to learn the math".
 
  • #29
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Very informative responses.

More observations from my innocent eyes:

One of the more significant things we know about the SF is that it changes character. Within the quark-gluon interaction, it has infinite strength. Between nucleons, it has the considerably smaller "non-infinite" amount of strength (considered to be a "residual" color force). Since we know that SF is capable of radically different manifestations depending on sphere of influence, might it then change character a third time outside the nucleus, to look exactly like gravity (accounting for Dead Boss' point)?
 
  • #30
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Very informative responses.

More observations from my innocent eyes:

One of the more significant things we know about the SF is that it changes character. Within the quark-gluon interaction, it has infinite strength. Between nucleons, it has the considerably smaller "non-infinite" amount of strength (considered to be a "residual" color force). Since we know that SF is capable of radically different manifestations depending on sphere of influence, might it then change character a third time outside the nucleus, to look exactly like gravity (accounting for Dead Boss' point)?
Does the SF interact with quarks and gluons differently than nucleons only because of their distances? I took Dead Boss' comment as the SF interaction operates on a different set of particles than Gravity does (I hope I'm not embarrassing myself too badly here).
 
  • #31
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Because the Strong Force and gravity are both forces that attract, could they actually be the same thing, manifesting in different ways at different distances?
No this is not at all correct. Strong forces are also known as nuclear forces as they have their origin from nucleus. Gravitational forces act universally and have nothing to do with nucleus or quantum. Moreover you're analyzing only one property of the two and then thinking them to be the same. This is the basic knowledge. In 15th century if you ask why world is round then its just justified as the knowledge at that time was meagre. Now our knowledge relating to these are quite rich and modern so in this century you can't just shoot in the dark.

Now I am listing out their properties. Compare them yourself and see how much difference they have :

1. Gravitational forces are weakest forces of nature while Strong (or nuclear) forces are strongest forces of nature.

2. Strong forces are limited to nucleus -> neutron-neutron attractive force , proton-neutron etc , but gravitational forces have nothing to do with nucleus and act universally.

3. Gravitational forces are always attractive. Not so with strong forces. Example : proton-proton repulsive forces.

4. Ratio of strength of strong forces to gravitational forces is 1:1039 .

5. Gravitational forces follow inverse distance square laws : inversely proportional to square of distance between centre of mass of two bodies. Not so with strong forces.

6. Gravitational forces are conservative while strong forces are non-conservative.

7. Gravitational forces can act through very long distances while strong forces can act only through distances in the order of magnitude of 10-15m .

I think , now you can see the differences between these two forces though.
 
  • #32
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3. Gravitational forces are always attractive. Not so with strong forces. Example : proton-proton repulsive forces.
That was brilliant. One thing to point out here, though. Proton-proton repulsive forces arise from electromagnetism, not the Colour force.
 
  • #33
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Thank you sankalpmittal for that very clear, detailed explanation. Question answered!
 
  • #34
Great answer
 
  • #35
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Can gravity and strong nuclear force be a symetry breaking like the electroweak is?
 

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